| re: Bully dog question | |
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Posted by: |
Leesa (gallytrotter@mchsi.com) 03:37 pm UTC 07/26/07 |
| In reply to: | re: Bully dog question - pidunk 06:03 am UTC 07/26/07 |
| Showing dogs, at least with the groups I've been involved with for 33 years, is about as far from from fighting dogs or millers' treatment as you can imagine. Most of these pampered dogs love to strut their stuff and be fussed over. Agility competition is something bullies absolutely love as well. I refer to the 'sport of purebred dogs' as a hobby-type interest, not a business, not a livestock operation--but a broad, encompassing activity that enhances not only the future of a breed, but betters the relationship between dogs and their owners and tries to set things in place that will better the breed. For example, Tufts University has worked with our club for years on studying the genetic link for our breed's obsessive compulsive tendancies. Dr George Strain attended our nationals in '93 to perform BAER testing, the measuring of brain waves to determine deafness, another trait from the Dals, and MANY people paid for the service. With purebred dogs comes a plethora of genetic issues and instead of taking the 'not my dog' approach, we try to see where it coming from and how to best eliminate the issue. The reality is that most dogs do not show after 2 yrs and then become full-time housedogs or go on to be therapy dogs, obedience/agility participants,etc. The one thing we do NOT do ever is see our dogs as money makers. However, the more things we can involve people in with their dogs to do together to enhance that relationship is what we promote. It also enhances our breeds image ona PR basis, which with breed specific legislation, is critical. Bull Breeds are becoming banned in more and more cities because there IS an agenda when it comes to many states really wanting to eliminate dogs period--why? Because they can't control the people, but they can control the dogs. Liability from dog bites, all breeds, has made many home insurers cancel policies even if a certain breed is owned. It's very unjust, but all bull breeds tend to be clumped together as there are so many mixes out there that defy single-breed categorising. Ohio I know outlaws Bull Terriers in several cities and we have cities all over the country on 'watch lists' pop up everyday. Pitbulls do NOT turn on people on a moments notice. The majority of these dogs are very sound. Many have been trained to be used as weapons, have been fought, or some maybe unpredictable. The marginals who exploit them have ruined many individuals, and all but devastated the breed's reputation. Um, I don't understand just where you take issue with our lifelong guarentee. Uh, yeah, 20 years would be great--but the sad truth is most bullies don't live past 14. Yes, we guarentee for health, genetic stuff and I offer to buy the dog back at any age, anytime, for what they paid for the puppy rather than having the dog go to a shelter or bounce from unsuitable home to unsuitable home. It does happen. Short of a spay/neuter contract, puppy-back (meaning pick of a litter), co-own, etc, the dog is their's but we're always there if they need us. We feel these all to be responsibilities that need to be done to justify putting more dogs on the earth. I can't agree with you more about questionable rescue outfits. That's one reason that BTCA threw us together and that we all agreed on standards and accountability so these fringe things are minimised. We've had people involved in rescue that had just seen too much and had real problems letting the dogs go, out of a morbid fear something horrid would befall them. You have to be very carefulto know when to step back and take a break. And I couldn't agree more than less-than perfect owners. One reason I sold my pups at low prices--the right families weren't always the rich ones. Shar-peis are a good example of a breed really fucked up by the price-gouging practises of several years back. Pups going for $2500 and up apiece when other breeds were topping out at $1000. Thoses aren't pets, those are investments. And the temptation to have a litter and clear that kind of money becomes strong. The breed is a mess. They sold out. The Chihuahua lady you speak of was a typical rescue burnout. She was no longer helping anything. Very sad. And yes, we DO educate vets, pet stores, the public, etc. more than we do anything else in regards to our breed. We have several books written by some of the world's best breeders, many of who belong to the BTCA. We update and distribute flyers to judges in regards to our latest standards, to vets--we give informational talks, etc. We always try to be available for specialed problems as well. My vet and I put an unconventional combo together of antibiotics to combat a raging staph infection a bully of mine had several years ago--it was the only thing that stopped it. Several BTs around the country had died from it and it turned out this combo basically cured future problems. So we published that. As to letting 'god take his hand to it', I just don't have alot of faith when it comes to trusting the well-being of my breed and the goodness of human nature to leave it all in god's hands. Mind you, you do have to trust and hope for the best at times, but I always listen to my gut on such things. It has meant life or death to 2 of my dogs in the past. As for group placements, very few judges know what to look for in a good BT. I have watched dogs that went on to be finalists at Silverwood (our nationals where the best BT born in North America is chosen each fall) not even place in a terrier group!! Or even make it to terriers because some shelly, snipey thing was put up instead in the BT class itself...we've had more breeder-judges involved recently in both Eukanuba as well as Westminster. Last year Rocky Top's Sundance Kid won best in show--that's EVERYTHING, the BEST of every dog, every breed, in both the Euke as well as Westminster--when they went around the final time, I knew they we're going to put him up and they did!! If the wind was right, you probably heard the scream from Iowa! Becky Poole (his breeder), one of my co-breeders and Norma Shephard who was in charge of our national rescue for years co-own him with another lady who handled him alot. These are all folks who have really dedicated their lives to these dogs--Bill and Becky didn't have kids because the breed is their life's work.They replace their furniture every year for the dogs! That's the loyalty these dogs inspire. Norma called me later that week and we're both in tears on the phone--I'd known her 20 years and she'd always dealt with the 'ugly step children' facet of our club, not the fun, glamourous stuff--Rufus was a just going to be a pet to replace her beloved Malva--just a fawn dog, a colour looked down on...then that head cranked, the bite stayed clean and the boy just became--sorta like a Jim song!!! If you go to the BTCA website, I'm sure his photos are still there--he's stunning! We can't be happier for the people who'd worked so hard for so long. Oh believe me, everyone know Molly is a BT. We had a spike in rescue numbers as soon as their campainge began in earnest--we do alot of tracking that kind of stuff. Target kindly gave us a $10 thousand dollar grant for rescue to help off-set costs. And again, the pits are not that different from any other bull breed--you're hearing and responding to individual situations and the media bias. When rescue was slow here, I took in 2 pits that needed rescuing and they were sounder than most BT's we've had here. They're extremely smart and train much faster than our dogs. They do have a large number of very questionable rescue groups--that is lack of any organisation, both group or action . The AKC-counterparts, the American Staffordshire BT, have a club that basically has no rescue--THEIR dogs aren't ever in shelters--it's always someone else's...yet they keep whelping litters out as well, with no money put toward the cast-offs languishing in the shelters (because of course, not their dogs)...to me, that's arrogance at it's very worst--people's egos put before the dogs welfare. And oh no, just because an experienced BT owner can foster and evaluate certain doesn't mean that dog is placeable. Our rescue is being faced with more and more liability issues and you get a quirky dog and naive owners that you do your BEST to educate, and people can't always understand these dogs are not Labs--they are strong, smart, terriers. I wouldn't have placed Homer--his renal condition was such that he wasn't suffering--he was happy and comfortable but his time was limited. We did all we could for him. Most dogs need special circumstances, i.e., no cats, no kids, only dog, etc. or have health issues that need on going attention. Most all need obedience training. We want to make this home their forever home. We insist on fenced yards, no breed specific legislation (which has been a huge reason we can't place dogs just everywhere--they hit a shelter there and they're euthanised)and such things. But I've had many dogs through here I wouldn't be comfortable placing in all but the most select circumstances. Many can, however, be placed without incident. With this litter, only one male pup is good. It sounds like they're faring well. They will need to look into worming as well as vac schedule--puppies can be just stuffed with worms, under the very best of circumstances. And worm infestations can easily kill. It's much cheaper to just to the messy wormer thing. You're wise to cut the bitch some slack--a maternal bitch will often bite--as a co-breeder used to say, 'that's not your little dog in there--she's a mom!' And he was right. As for naivety being a virtue, maybe on somethings but in my experience the dogs too often pay for it--ignorance and naivety tend to be very close. When I tell someone that they need to keep a dog away from other dogs, and a fight occurs because that didn't happen and they thought I meant gender not ALL dogs...oh god. It goes on and on. Leesa > > > > Susan, > > > > This was just too stupid to let this go. Spuds McKenzie > > (Honeytree's Evil Eye, "Evie", bred by my good friends > > David and Peggy Selk, and finished her championship under > > my co-breeder)was one of the biggest curses our breed had. > > There are always millers around to fill the needs of > > people who want animals they simply shouldn't have, hence > > the shelter numbers. > > I'm not saying that some pet buyers/adopters are not > irresponsible. This kind of thing happens to baby chicks > every Easter season. It happens with all breeds of dogs > and cats, that a fad is a fad, and then a problem, like > Dalmations had some years back because of 101 Dalmations. > People discovered the emotional needs of Dalmations were > too much to handle. It takes a special kind of pet owner > to handle a pet who needs alot of attention. What I have > learned of BT's is that similarly to Dalmations, they need > a great deal more from their owners than other breeds of > dogs typically need. The Taco Bell Chihuahua has also > created a large area of problems with regard to that > breed, which has good and bad rescue units alike. I met a > highly abusive so-called Chihuahua rescuer several years > ago, who I saw was treating their warehoused animals > poorly, and told me the tale of their wife having died and > making the wish that ten of her standards and teacups be > put to sleep to be buried with her, which demand was met. > Indeed, the nightmare of this tainted my perception of > those who discuss rescues of breeds, that sometimes the > dogs are better off with less than perfect owners, than > with less than helpful rescuers. > > I saw also warehousing of cats, including ferals which > made my skin crawl. These people were awful, and I was > powerless to do anything about it....they made sure to > hide their tracks when they caught wind I was calling > animal organizations inquiring as to their standards of > practices. I didn't like having to see those things. I > resented their volunteering me shelter and then giving me > that nightmare instead. I was at that place for ten days, > during which time I had a walking pneumonia I needed rest > from, otherwise I would not have been so docile. And while > I was there I segregated my Simon from all those, gave him > his tag, and kept him in a crate on the bed next to me, > his own food, water and sandbox. He came out of it and so > did I physically healthier than we came in, but not by any > accident or without effort. > > Since then, one member of their organization has been > forced out of operation, but not by any of my doing. Since > they took their own sense of self-importance from this > one, I am certain that they turned their own tails too. > > > > >When Evie became popular, rescue then > > became part of our national club--the numbers spiked. > > These are not dogs for everyone, anymore than pitbulls or > > even rotts are for everyone. And not everyone does their > > homework. > > That is very true with respect to any animal or even toy, > when you come to think of it. People make too many > assumptions and want the reality to fit their dream in > toys at Christmas, or in pets for children or for their > home. Pit Bulls especially are in too greater numbers than > I understand, being as they have such abilities to turn on > anyone in a minute. In Los Angeles, one sees this dog more > often than any other breed. Second seems to be the > Labrador. > > > > > >Underbreeding is a responsible thing to do in > > the sport of purebred dogs--we have enough dogs already of > > every sort in the shelters, for Christ's sake! > > The thing that I have a problem with is the concept of > "sport" attached to these animals. I can't consider any > part of animal husbandry a sport. A friend of a breed, > breeds the breed and maintains the friendship with > responsible placement. The whole idea of showing dogs, is > something that I feel has too much regimentation to it, > and this goes with cats too though I would have gladly > have shown my Simon if ever the opportunity had arisen > just because he was so beautiful and amazing. Showing dogs > and cats for sport, is one step away from fighting them > except a more demure way of being cold to the animals. No > offense to those who proudly show their animals, but as a > feeling, I just sense that it is hard to be personal with > a commodity of display. Then there are the personal > differences between individuals so I do not intend to make > an unfair generalization. Sport, is not for the love of an > animal. Sport, is for the use of an animal, and there are > uses, and their are loves, and love is no sport I know. > > > > >You don't > > see overall numbers when you visit a microcosim. Many bull > > breeds are euthanised upon entry. Breeed specific > > legislation which deems certain breeds illegal makes it a > > race to a shelter--we've lost bullies a couple times > > because 12 hr lead time wasn't enough. > > Where are bullies illegal? I'm not referring to Pits. > > >We sell our dogs > > for LESS than millers and many of us guareentee our dogs > > for LIFE. > > Isn't this a bit redundant? When the dog dies, the > guarantee is null. Gee, what a surprise. I think I believe > you mean that you support the dogs' health status for the > twelve years of life expectancy. But really, would you not > instead rather see them live to twenty? This part is > something that I can't sign on to with understanding > because I don't like the idea of control to this extent. > If I buy a dog from you, it is none of your business where > I am six years down the road, and you have no business > tracking where this dog goes once it leaves you. Why not > educate vets and pet shops, write and publish books about > the breed to help support those who are most inclined to > be responsible owners of the breed you know, and let God > take his hand to it? > > > > > >And as for shows, we mainly compete at > > specialties, i.e., just Bull Terriers, for 2 > > reasons--first, most terrier judges in all-breed shows are > > not fond of the bull-type terriers and usually send > > Benji-type terriers to group. > > Where has this happened? They have the ugliest dogs > represented in every general breed show. What's all this > singling out of BT's? I'm really not sure about this at > all. Seems like an excuse. All types of terriers get into > the terrier group. Especially the clown face of the > bullie. Can't look at that face and not smile. Next time > someone gives you trouble, put a red nose on one. :) > > > >Secondly, all-breed shows > > often only have 2 or 3 bullies entered and it's hard to > > earn points to championships and ROMS are out of the > > question in such small class sizes. Show weekends are very > > expensive. So the specialties around the country are well > > attended, as are our yearly nationals. My co-breeder won > > Westminster last year so we're definately out there. > > That's good.....which category? I don't tend to follow > those shows every year. > > > > Their 'secrecy' keeps them rare'--I laughed out loud. > > Yeah, that's it. My god...! Molly as the Target dog hides > > really well behind that red bullseye! > > Actually, that red bullseye does detract from > appreciation, including knowledge of the breed. Nobody > notices the kind of dog it is. They just see the bullseye. > > > > > >Anyone who really > > wants a bull terrier can find one. A responsible breeder > > who will stand behind their dogs and charge LESS for a > > quality, well-bred, healthy pet seems a bit better than > > buying from a miller providing the polar opposite. Most > > millers don't deal with our dogs because they are a > > labour-intensive breed. Most bitches don't whelp alone--I > > spend about a week sleeping beside the whelping box each > > night before the litter arrives. They aren't retrievers > > that you can lock in a barn and be presented with a > > litter. Labour is money and they are not cost-effective > > mill prospects. Some millers DO sell them however and you > > just see sometime how they do it and be really glad they > > have a right to raise and treat dogs as such--maybe > > responsible breeders fiercly protective of their breed > > won't look so bad. You think it's about 'control'--well, a > > breed such as the pits HAVE no 'control'/responsible > > group. And they are fabulous dogs which have been allowed > > into the hands of marginals seduced by street swagger who > > betray the fierce loyalty they have and use them as > > weapons until they die doing what their masters ask--and > > most of those dogs have sounder temperments over all than > > ours. WE have PR and a damned good breed club. And yeah, > > maybe control to a point. You decide which breed is better > > off overall. > > You have to understand there is no other breed like the > Pits, where they are bred for fighting each other and that > is cruelty at its highest level. The kinds of treatments > of those animals just prime them for aggression, and the > reason there is nobody on their side is because their side > is a hard one to be on. The people who buy them actually > buy them because of their vicious natures. The only breed > that needs controls is the Pits. > > > > > And your take on our rescue is just amazingly naive--you > > don't have a realistic clue at all--you have NO idea what > > our 20 yr history has been. Because you don't see more > > than 20 (20 too many...) BT's listed in rescue up for > > adoption, doesn't mean that hotspotters as myself (I alone > > covered 2 states for several years)and regional club > > members aren't fostering, nursing, or evaluating 10 times > > that many dogs not ready for (and may never be ready or > > placeable for) adoption. > > If a dog can be fostered, it can be placed. If you can > tolerate a dog, someone can give that dog a home. I don't > believe that anything short of incorrigible is > unplaceable. > > > > >Meanwhile, their costs fall on > > us. You talk about a labour of love. Every rescue I've > > ever had through here has been a stop to our vet on the > > way home--never under $300 out of my pocket except > > once--that was $150. BTCA reimburses part of that about 6 > > months later. And many of these animals are unsocialised, > > problem dogs or at best traumatised by time at the > > shelter. Which means many all nighters up with dogs. And > > some of these dogs stay 6 months or better! Homer, (the > > poet, not Simpson) was a blind 7 yr old tossed over a > > shelter fence over night in Des Moines--if we'd not been > > there in 24 hrs to collect after the call came in, he'd > > have been euthanised. He was a fabulous dog but died of > > his advanced renal failure in my arms 2 months later. > > This is surprising that you allowed him to die naturally > in his own God chosen time. Most animal "experts" > euthanize animals at the first sign of terminal in the > prognosis. It is a shame he died, but it is good he had > some comfort. > > > > >He > > was our housedog the entire time we had him and a real > > joy. But this shit is painful. We clean up messes. I'm > > bitter about the type of people who create them and I have > > a short fuse with those who don't understand. The dogs are > > the ones who pay. We might seem an arrogant lot, but there > > is nothing, especially ourselves, more important than > > these dogs. > > One should, perhaps meter the doling out of arrogance and > temper it with a moderate dose of generosity. The > education you mention is exactly what I mean. > > > >The more we educate, the better the dogs will > > fare. I sincerely apologise to you for failing to help you > > more directly more quickly for what you had asked me > > earlier--I was guilty of the seeming 'elitism' I've > > accused fellow members of years back. It was my gut > > reaction to a bad situation. > > I still only hope that this litter comes out okay. I do > worry if these are products of siblings like you > mentioned, and I just hope that the least problems to them > arise. I saw one puppy happily upside down attached to his > mother's teat, sucking, sucking, and drawing it all in, > and I thought that was strange, but she was very content. > I'm told there is only one male. I only had the one peek, > and don't intend to look in any further. The mom is highly > protective, and that is good, she is diligent in caring > for her pups. > > > > > > We don't have a problem in rescue as you see it and it's > > all our fault...gee, if we were more 'popular' then we'd > > have a BIGGER problem, then we'd be filling a need, then > > we'd have the right to bitch about the problem we > > created! > > I think the viewpoint you get is the worst of them. Most > people who have their dogs love their dogs, and your view > is perhaps not naive, but I like naivety, because people > who do right, have the right to be naive. > > > > > Yupper...glad you have cats. > > Leesa > > I'm glad I have cats too. I adore mine. I've had cats for > many years and know I don't have to worry about anyone > chewing up one of my shoes. Not to say they don't scratch > them, though. But I don't let them scratch any good shoes. > > > > > > | |
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