| re: Bully dog question | |
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Posted by: |
Leesa (gallytrotter@mchsi.com) 12:05 am UTC 07/29/07 |
| In reply to: | re: Bully dog question - pidunk 07:05 pm UTC 07/27/07 |
| Thanks for the photo--what a beautiful boy he was! He was most fortunate to be so loved. A very nice kitty, indeed. Leesa > > > > Susan, > > I just wanted to tell you something after re-reading your > > post about you and your beloved Simone. I am by no means a > > cat person, but that really does make my heart hurt > > because that bond is the same. > > > "Simon" without the "e" was his anglicized name after I > was looking in a Hebrew dictionary for what to call him > based on my feelings about him, and since I felt he was a > gift from god I found a word that translates to "token" > and it was the hebrew word "ahseemoan" which readily > adapted itself, much to his obvious happiness, Simon. The > first time I said the name he loved it, and took it for > his name immediately. He was five months old when I'd > gotten him, and named him when he was seven months, but I > had seen him around as part of a litter left outside > during that spring. One by one his romping siblings left > and he stayed. I think it was his independent nature. But > he was not independent with regards to me. He chose me. > The vet told me he was a grey tabby, but when I looked in > a book after his colors developed more, I saw he was not a > tabby at all. I found that he belonged to a breed, indeed. > That was the very new breed of Ragdoll. > > > > If Simone was a bully and you were one of my puppy people, > > I'd have expected ('assumed', not meaning you had an > > obligation to) you to call and let me know of your > > desperate situation. We would have talked about what was > > best for both you and Simone and how we could help get you > > both in a better place. > > > Cat fanciers that I have seen are not anything like you > describe. I have found "cat people" to be arrogant and to > totally disregard the human in the human-cat connection. > However that awful set of people I encountered did seem to > have the spoken intent that I would have free shelter with > my cat, while I worked (I was already employed part time) > and saved up my money. It would have been a good situation > if several factors were in place: if the house was not a > warehouse for sick animals and feral cats both sick and > healthy, if a family of rats did not wildly populate the > laundry room, and if the owner of the house hence the host > did not offensively harrass me late one night. However > other problems were there too....his house was a terrible > pigsty and I had to clean it or it was not livable, and no > help was had in making it livable. I had to share the room > with eight strange cats, stay in a room that had a screen > door but no regular door so there was no privacy, and he > said he was about to move another girl into the house too. > > > I did not try to affiliate with any Ragdoll breeders, and > much as you think I should, I believe that I increased > Simon's life span by about fourteen years beyond what may > have been. He became very ill at the age of two with a > mortal prognosis, but for a book I found which claimed a > nutritional cure, which I applied with my at-home > adaptations. Six weeks later in this intensive around the > clock treatment and monitoring, he became symptom free. > Nobody would say now he ever had that illness, simply > because he lived. > > >If you needed to be together and > > he wasn't in danger of being confiscated (i.e., you rushed > > to a hospital and he thrown in an unknown shelter), > > The bronchial malady that I had going into that house > caused me to cough a great deal and I assumed a mild > pneumonia because I had been living outdoors, but after I > left that house I felt better for a time, until someone > blithely took Simon's kennel with Simon within it, and > threw it into a chemical laden dumpster, and the miracle > of my having gotten him retrieved I give to God and nobody > else, for just the right circumstances were in place that > made the admission of the action and the showing of his > location before it was too late. Oh I cried so hard, > holding Simon in my arms, as I knew I almost just had lost > him so impossibly. He got sick that night and so did I, > and I knew to use activated charcoal to excise the toxins. > That helped both of us, but I had tried to contact the > hazardous waste authorities for identification of the > substance, but to no result. I learned about activated > charcoal when I took that Dalmane in 1987 and the hospital > gave me that. I did for Simon what they did for me, mix > the charcoal with water, and I fed it to him through his > bottle (I always had a bottle for him with me). He drank > it easily and returned to normal. As I did as well, > except, a week later the cough I had still somewhat > persistently became adjuncted by a very weak breathing and > I went to the hospital. > > I had to go to the hospital several times and keep Simon > somehow too. When I injured my foot I went to several > places and Simon's kennel was placed wherever I was able > to place it, and then I returned. One hospital allowed me > to keep him and the kennel with me while I was examined. > But no ambulences permitted the animal aboard, and I don't > suppose I could blame them. When I had bronchitis after > this chemical incident, I think they let the kennel in > with me, and though they should have admitted me for acute > bronchitis, they chose to prescribe medications and let me > go. So, I managed to stay with him because nobody was > willing to address this animal situation of mine. I knew > to sit up while sleeping, and I stayed still most of the > time, and Simon was taken care of by me. > > At the same time, I was pitching a tent each night and > taking it down each morning. I had more energy than I had > a reason to, but did it at a pace that I could. Simon did > not complain. > > As much like a dog as any cat could be, so Simon was. He > had that cute dog-like strut with the cute smiley-like > face when he was walking towards me, and he was leash, > paper, and drain trained, not by my credit but by his own > ingenuity along with me. He made little barky kinds of > sounds, that sounded like "ruff ruff", and had alot to > say. He growled when he wanted to growl, and he wanted to > have his way. He pulled me on the leash, stuck his head > out of his kennel, and was a sight to see. > > In 1998, years after that incident with the poor prognosis > he had another illness that two vets were not able to > diagnose with their blood panels and they did not try > other tests, when he stopped drinking his water. I always > watched his drinking so noticed it immediately. The bottle > feeding began then, and later he reinstituted his water > drinking but it was an eight month long crisis. He also > didn't know what to do with water in his dish, so he > splashed it everywhere until that symptom subsided too. I > retaught him his drinking. And made sure he didn't > dehydrate. > > What killed Simon in the end I feel is the attitude of > vets in the vicinity where untrained receptionists are not > equipped for handling emergency situations or indigent pet > owners in same, and no help was given though I called > around wherever I could. With fluids and a tracheotomy he > could have survived, I would like to think, although I > don't know, and nobody was able to tell me. He died with > me, unable to breathe from a combination of dehyrdration > caused by the inability to take liquids through his mouth > (I got some in, but not enough perhaps) and a blockage to > his airway. He coughed some part of himself up, I didn't > know what and tried to get a vet to speak to me, but no > vet was willing to take the call. > > Show me a place where vets can be as humane as these > so-called humane associations, and I might be less > skeptical. Simon was sixteen and a half years old. I > wanted him to live to thirty, even if no other cat ever > did. > > > > > > > >we'd > > work on providing for him--I'd have paid for anything he > > needed to keep him with you. If necessary, he'd be on a > > plane to me, paid for by me, to be boarded and cared for > > free by us until you were ready for him. > > Simon hunger-striked whenever he was separated from me > except when he was at his own (ours) home. Vets couldn't > feed him. They called and begged me to help feed him, and > he was not willing to eat without me. > > > > >I'd have no > > business rehoming him as the bond is strong and you needed > > to be reunited. He'd be returned to you. I'd have paid his > > vet bills and anything else until you were back on your > > feet. And you'd owe me nothing. Because you and the puppy > > I produced and placed with you matter more. > > In 1995, Simon was a bully to a cat called Goldilocks. > Would that have counted? :) > > > > THAT is my take on 'control' and responsibility to my dogs > > and my puppy people. > > I never would have turned my back on you--a good breeder > > is in your corner. > > I would have been there for you and Simone. That to me is > > PART of the 'sport' of purebred dogs. Taking care of > > business and our sacred puppy people. And believe me, I > > walk the walk. > > Just wanted you to know how I would have respnded to your > > situation. No strong-armed tactics, only a place to > > turn--for life. > > Leesa > > > The Ragdoll showers decided, after learning that my cat is > a Ragdoll, to stop showing cats like mine to be Ragdolls. > Instead they started showing oversize Siamese and Persians > as Ragdolls, and I was not able to confirm his breed until > after Simon died and I researched the breed online for his > memorial page. I did not find much but what I found > confirmed his breed. BT's as a breed are 130 years old, > but Ragdolls are a twentieth century breed, perhaps only > 50 years old. I never tried breeding Simon. He was my boy, > a calico boy at that, and I loved him very much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Susan, > > > I am really sad about hearing what you went through with > > > Simon. If I would have known you I would have given you > > > money and a place to board him. I honestly can't relate > > > personally to what you went through--I come from a very > > > different place, but the pain you went through is not > > > completely removed from what we see with mill and rescue > > > dogs. Our efforts all stem from wanting to keep both > > > bullies and people from that place you were in. Again, I > > > apologise for being a bitch. We're rife with good > > > intentions, but sometimes we need to try harder. > > > I'm so very sorry you lost Simone--we surround ourselves > > > with lives shorter than our own and that sanctity's easily > > > breached. > > > I asked a co-breeder of mine, in the breed since the > > > mid-60's, when they were here to evaluate the '88 litter > > > how it ever becomes easy--she told me that when it does, > > > it's time to get out. > > > I apologise again. I have rethought and yes, this whole > > > episode was indeed motivated by your compassion. > > > You must however try to understand MY gut reaction from > > > where I come from. > > > Nothing hurts more than losing a beloved member of your > > > family--except perhaps the inability to provide. > > > I'm sorry Susan. What you did to help that bully family > > > with was noble. I'll try to be better and kinder with > > > future advice. I was the one here who dropped the ball. > > > Please ask if anything is needed and I won't pry or press > > > an agenda. > > > I wish them, and you, the best. > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > You really don't seem capable of understanding anything > > > > > about purebred dogs or the life's work that dedication > > > > > often leads to. You quiz me about this litter of dogs' > > > > > (which I strongly suspect is ficticious, just to spur such > > > > > debate because this seems to be what you do, and you'd > > > > > know I'd react to) wellbeing, tell me 2 have died, and > > > > > think by me telling you the magical temperature range at > > > > > which they should be kept will make all right. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've told them to take the dogs to a vet. I said that the > > > > litter needs to be checked on to make sure everything is > > > > okay, and that the other puppies are okay. That was the > > > > first thing I suggested. When I had the kitten litter in > > > > 1995 I took the mom and kittens to a vet and had them > > > > checked. But the vet, after telling me they were fine, did > > > > not give me instructions for care. Instructions for care > > > > had to come from independent sources outside of the vet. I > > > > don't know why this is, that vets even when consulted keep > > > > their knowledge to themselves. So, with those six babies > > > > and mom I winged it, and found that one of them was not > > > > getting access to the teat as much as needed, so I bought > > > > KMR for her and gave her supplemental bottle feedings > > > > which aided her growth so she normalized to the others. > > > > Those babies all did well on the mom's teats, except for > > > > that one. When I began giving solid food, one of the > > > > others choked and I gave the kitten equivelant of heimlich > > > > to unlodge the food, thus helping that kitten survive. I > > > > did alot for that litter, the four months that I had them, > > > > and was unable to find resources for finding homes for > > > > them. I paid an adoption fee to the humane society with > > > > their names and left it to god when I had to leave town > > > > with my elder cat Simon in an emergency. > > > > > > > > With cats in the springtime, they call it "kitten season" > > > > and there was no organization taking placeable animals > > > > because they were full. This is a phenomenon that is > > > > avoidable if people who want cats could have cats where > > > > they live. Enough demand for cats really exists to > > > > accomodate the entire population of animals, who are put > > > > down instead. There is a problem with puppies of every > > > > breed as well, because it is the rare landlord who will > > > > permit animals, and so it is landlords who are behind the > > > > glut of unplaced animals, not people who rent from them. > > > > There are not enough rentable, liveable quarters for > > > > people who want animals to go around for all the animal > > > > lovers and their animals. > > > > > > > > When I was out on the street, I was there because I was > > > > not going to let Simon be without his mommy, which in this > > > > vicinity all too often means without his life, and I > > > > needed my Simon. For two years, I had noplace to live, > > > > because he had noplace to live with me. > > > > > > > > So, you should rethink my level of compassion, the amount > > > > of time that I put in for an animal, and recall how much I > > > > put in for Max to live, to live safely, and to live as > > > > long as he could, back in 1976 to 1978, and that I wanted > > > > to take him back when I had the ability to choose to do > > > > so. The only thing I heard from Thaya was that he should > > > > be put out of his misery when he was injured and I was > > > > following vet's orders for healing a serious wound, and > > > > that he was probably dead because her sister took him to > > > > the vet to put him down, at which time it was the vet who > > > > saved him, and then, it was Thaya who didn't let me have > > > > him back again. So, who is the heartless, and who has the > > > > heart? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I responded > > > > > with 'get them to a vet'--but 'Queenie' here doesn't 'get > > > > > off her throne' as she tries to explain why that isn't > > > > > sufficient, that these people most likely need more to > > > > > keep the dogs viable. But you're too caught up in yourself > > > > > to understand that isn't about you--or even me. > > > > > > > > If you have had three litters you have memories of the > > > > care you took of those three litters and you have the > > > > ability to give simple rudimentary advice of care, give > > > > advice to avoid pitfalls, and to know the do's and dont's > > > > that vets may not tell, and which I knew from my kitten > > > > experience, I was not told. What common sense there may be > > > > that vets assume might apply could be alien logic to > > > > someone who does not know what an animal situation is > > > > like. Three litters is alot of experience to share.....you > > > > can remember when the mom did x and when the babies did x > > > > and so you learned x, and so you can share all these > > > > experiences, but you don't. Maybe you really didn't have > > > > those litters at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Or try > > > > > even to see what I'm getting at, that the animals need > > > > > more care and responsibility and me saying '75 degrees' > > > > > doesn't change anything! > > > > > > > > Clearly. I hardly think that some twenty dogs found their > > > > first human contacts with you, who can't do anything other > > > > than read the numbers on a thermometer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Your vanity is just amazing. It's > > > > > hard to believe you have a compassionate or understanding > > > > > bone in your body--it's all about Susan. > > > > > > > > The whole of my energies are definitely not a whole lot > > > > about Susan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Speaking of which, someone on the Rockman apparently DOES > > > > > know you--I got an e-mail last night--someone has read > > > > > this thread with you accusing me of trying to find > > > > > you--this person sent me what they claim is your current > > > > > address and several photos, (fairly unflattering) claimed > > > > > to be very recent, of you which do resemble the ones on > > > > > your website. They also have more details about your > > > > > present life than I really cared to know. > > > > > > > > That's old news. I knew someone would. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, you're right on that one--someone IS watching you and > > > > > paying alot of attention. > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > That's old news too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you think our numbers in rescue are low? Could it > > > > > > > be because we're RESCUING AND PLACING THE DOGS??? If we > > > > > > > weren't doing it, the numbers would be much higher. > > > > > > > > > > > > You call the breed rare, then act like the low numbers of > > > > > > unplaced dogs is your credit. The breed is rare because > > > > > > you keep a lock and key on it. Dogs are popular when they > > > > > > are shown. Dogs are obscure when they are not shown. > > > > > > Somehow, you manage, your collective at any rate, manages > > > > > > to keep these dogs rare, despite Spuds MacKenzie of yore. > > > > > > These dogs are beautiful and very captivating to one's > > > > > > spirit, so it is only their secrecy that keeps them rare. > > > > > > They are charming enough to be in high demand and high > > > > > > supply. Then, there may be a rescue problem, like with > > > > > > other breeds. But you don't have that problem because you > > > > > > are a close knit group keeping these dogs ostensibly to > > > > > > yourselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for your total misunderstanding of the ACK's role in > > > > > > > the sport of purebred dogs, whatever. Microchipping is a > > > > > > > great conspiracy as well--whatever. Visit a shelter > > > > > > > sometime, lady. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been to a shelter recently, earlier this year. It was > > > > > > a few weeks after my beloved Simon died and I was looking > > > > > > around at what I might find in low-cost neuter for the two > > > > > > others that I still have. After I took care of that > > > > > > administrative business, I looked around at the cats and > > > > > > the dogs. After reading article after article of thousands > > > > > > of cats and dogs being put down week after week, I was > > > > > > astonished to find that there were only about eight cats > > > > > > in the cat portion, and about twelve dogs in the dog > > > > > > portion, and there was one cat and one dog I'd happily had > > > > > > taken home with me, one cat named Adonis which name I like > > > > > > (and Jim knows why), and he was a large cat seeming to > > > > > > need attention, and one sweet looking Shetland Sheepdog. I > > > > > > was able to take neither of course, but I was appalled at > > > > > > the tawdry amount of space for these animals that there > > > > > > are such problems. If the culture was more conducive > > > > > > instead of prohibitive about keeping pets, every pet would > > > > > > have a home and every person who wants a pet would have > > > > > > one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And my 'phony' interest is all a ruse to find you--hell > > > > > > > you're HERE all the time anyway!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, I exist between the pixels, that's one of my > > > > > > addresses...doh! > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, I was at the Simpson Movie World Premier > > > > > > tonight, didn't see the movie (wasn't there for that) but > > > > > > had a really scrumptious Cherry syrup and sprinkles topped > > > > > > donut they were giving out, fresh out of the oven. Yum! > > > > > > They had a band wearing yellow tee shirts playing the > > > > > > theme and someone was saying something to a rather > > > > > > unattentive crowd. I didn't see any attempts on their part > > > > > > of making rubber puppets as characters for the crowd, they > > > > > > just spewed out bunches of yellow confetti from machines > > > > > > every once in awhile. People on the sidelines who were > > > > > > there quickly left and went about their business because > > > > > > the planners of the event did not do anything worthwhile > > > > > > for it at all. But there was sure a lot of yellow. Yellow > > > > > > carpet instead of red carpet, and above one theater > > > > > > marquee they had the blue "hair" of Margie's, and on the > > > > > > other theater's marquee they had some other something in > > > > > > yellow. For color and pomp, I'd give them a seven, for > > > > > > event planning, I'd give them a three, for star power, I'd > > > > > > give them a one. And that's generous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And these folks are going to make some money breeding > > > > > > > dogs--no one doing right makes money--they break even > > > > > > > under the best of circimstances--unless of course they're > > > > > > > millers. Then doing it right doen't matter--because the > > > > > > > animals are then commodities. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know anything about such kinds of enterprises. I > > > > > > just hope they do the right things for the dogs, and that > > > > > > is all. I know that they know alot of people, probably > > > > > > already have homes picked out for the puppies, or at least > > > > > > I hope that they will have an easy time finding them > > > > > > homes. I don't think they've ever sold dogs before. If > > > > > > they did they would show a greater expertise than I'm > > > > > > seeing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They have the litter in a bathroom at work??? Oh my god. > > > > > > > Sounds like you all deserve each other on about every > > > > > > > level. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Really? I didn't bring them there. And I'm not a bad > > > > > > person for asking how they should be cared for. YOU are > > > > > > disgraceful in your behavior by turning it into this. But > > > > > > I should have known already. I gave you a chance to do the > > > > > > right thing here and you can't. You can only deride me, > > > > > > and criticise them for how dare they breed dogs without > > > > > > your blessings? Get off your throne, Queenie. This isn't > > > > > > your kingdom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess I can't imagine anyone at all buying dogs to > > > > > > > > > breed, mpst likely with the intention of selling the > > > > > > > > > puppies, without papers--from a price perspective alone, > > > > > > > > > the value can increase several hundred dollars, > > > > > > > > > respectively. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not capable of making judgements about such things. > > > > > > > > Whether they have the blessings of their breeder and just > > > > > > > > are private about it, whether they are doing things right > > > > > > > > and playing dumb, whether they have the papers and selling > > > > > > > > with or without papers, don't know. But I know that they > > > > > > > > like having small opportunities to make money and don't > > > > > > > > think of trivialiies like what everyone else is supposed > > > > > > > > to do, in their decision making. Whatever they are doing, > > > > > > > > I know about it because they put it in front of my nose, > > > > > > > > so much so that I can't use my bathroom at work, because > > > > > > > > they have the litter there. Otherwise in all respects it > > > > > > > > is none of my business because as far as these dogs are > > > > > > > > concerned I do not know how to judge proper treatment and > > > > > > > > they are being fed and looked after by their owners. It is > > > > > > > > none of my business, and I only wanted to give them > > > > > > > > helpful advice to do my part to help the animals. If the > > > > > > > > purpose of your inquiry is to find me through them under > > > > > > > > your guise of involvement with a bureaucracy, then I won't > > > > > > > > help you do that, nor should anyone else help you to do > > > > > > > > that, and if you r purpose is to promote the bureacracy > > > > > > > > (such as Thaya is prone to do as long as it is a > > > > > > > > bureacracy she likes) that is also something that > > > > > > > > is.....anti-democratic. Yes, anti-democratic, something > > > > > > > > that is against freedoms in all their forms, and something > > > > > > > > that is summarily controlling without a right to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Really try to get a name as to where they > > > > > > > > > came from--a town, breeder, bloodline, anything--I'd > > > > > > > > > really appreciate it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > None of my business. None of your business. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I wonder if the 'European dog' came > > > > > > > > > from one of the peple who land at airports in the US, from > > > > > > > > > basically all over Europe, with a litter of pups to sell. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If they came from there at all. Don't know. None of my > > > > > > > > business, none of your business. Let a dog have his life, > > > > > > > > let the people have their dogs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This happened to a guy in Dubuque, Iowa a few years back. > > > > > > > > > They run an ad in a major city newspaper (the Chicago > > > > > > > > > Times this one was in) and you go meet them at the airport > > > > > > > > > to pick and buy your pup on site! They are registered with > > > > > > > > > these 'National Pet Registry'-type papers--just a totally > > > > > > > > > bogus registry. And they charge often over a $1000 a pup. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, they see where there is a market to sell > > > > > > > > puppies. A puppy is not a commodity. A puppy is a puppy. > > > > > > > > You downgrade it like there is a black market, when all > > > > > > > > you want to do is to promote the black market instead, > > > > > > > > then decrie its existence. Just get off it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The AKC is a private self-originated organization and they > > > > > > > > do not have the right to be the exclusive authority on who > > > > > > > > traces what lineage of what dogs and who issues papers for > > > > > > > > them either. There is no such thing, in that regard, as > > > > > > > > bogus, unless those papers declare themselves fraudulently > > > > > > > > to be AKC papers. You are saying that this other registry > > > > > > > > exists on its own terms with its own names. Just because > > > > > > > > it is a competitor, does not mean it is bogus. But you > > > > > > > > don't seem riled about Smith, in the slightest. Hmmmm. > > > > > > > > Interesting contradiction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rescue has been swamped out east with the pups as they > > > > > > > > > have health maladies like any bully lines, but no breeders > > > > > > > > > to help take care of the puppy people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are all forms of rescue organizations in all over > > > > > > > > the country for all breeds that are beset with problemed > > > > > > > > animals. It is not just bullies, and my searches showed > > > > > > > > that at the present time there are a total of around > > > > > > > > twelve or twenty bullies in rescue waiting for adoption at > > > > > > > > this time in the whole country. We are not talking about > > > > > > > > epidemics here. Your sense of perspective is not just > > > > > > > > misplaced but conveniently so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There were times when I wanted to find ways to help a > > > > > > > > couple of dogs but I didn't know where or how to, a couple > > > > > > > > of dogs, one whom was descended from Benji, each the same > > > > > > > > breed, the Benji dog being the mother of the other. One > > > > > > > > after another, they somehow, according to the owner, dived > > > > > > > > into their home swimming pool to kill themselves, and that > > > > > > > > didn't seem right to me, but what am I to do about that? > > > > > > > > Before that, I did see the dogs begging for the owner's > > > > > > > > attention to go out and pee, only to pee on the floor > > > > > > > > after being ignored. If I believed that this person would > > > > > > > > be the one in charge of these bullies, I would not go to > > > > > > > > you, but the SPCA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't believe anyone legitimate would sell a pup without > > > > > > > > > AKC papers. It's a critical part of purebred dogs, > > > > > > > > > especially breeding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a market wanting dogs of a breed, there are many who > > > > > > > > don't care about papers. If they did, the market would not > > > > > > > > be so proliferant, and, the AKC is a bureaucracy, not a > > > > > > > > legal authority, and nothing that gives anyone any right > > > > > > > > to supplicate an owner's authority for what they shall do > > > > > > > > to secure homes for their dogs, sold, given, or otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't suppose they microchipped the dogs either--you > > > > > > > > > might mention that bullies are stolen regularly as well > > > > > > > > > and this is an excellent way for permanent ID. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Getting into the bureacratic thing again. You are > > > > > > > > desperate for your bulli-share of attention with respect > > > > > > > > with these animals that only needed a few bits of helpful > > > > > > > > advice, but you are not much into giving helpful advice, > > > > > > > > are you? You want to control, control, control, and > > > > > > > > control some more. That is how the RH cult began. Right > > > > > > > > here. This behavior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you again for finding any of this out--I'd really > > > > > > > > > like to know where these dogs came from and from who. > > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't you put your energy to the ones who are on the > > > > > > > > six bullie message boards, that you are absent from? You > > > > > > > > have a phony interest. I'm done with this topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Susan, please grant me a huge favour here--try to find out what the the dog and bitch's registered names are. Especially Rufus. Also, are they white or coloured bullies? > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Colored bullies. The mom has a black/brown face. The dad, > > > > > > > > > > I haven't seen him in several months, not recently, but > > > > > > > > > > not white, best as I could recall. I thought they were > > > > > > > > > > siblings because they were puppies of the same age/size > > > > > > > > > > growing up. But now being told they aren't. The answer I'd > > > > > > > > > > get to their registered names would be that they don't > > > > > > > > > > know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This family may not be millers themselves, but I'd > > > > > > > > > > > > > strongly suspect miller involvement. As I said, there are > > > > > > > > > > > > > millers in every state and odds are very high one figures > > > > > > > > > > > > > in with these 2 dogs somewhere. So this family bought 2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > puppies from another family who had a litter--are you > > > > > > > > > > > > > implying these dogs were littermates and now the bitch is > > > > > > > > > > > > > in whelp to her brother? Or was this family having a > > > > > > > > > > > > > number of different litters at the same time? Gosh, I bet > > > > > > > > > > > > > everyone's papered as well...and yeah, I do 'rush to > > > > > > > > > > > > > judgement' in cases like this because 95% of the time this > > > > > > > > > > > > > is how it plays out over and over--I've watched it for 20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > years now. Many people are guilty of rushing to judgement, > > > > > > > > > > > > > by the way--not just 'Thaya' and me. And of course calling > > > > > > > > > > > > > someone a miller is a detriment. People allowing 2 pups to > > > > > > > > > > > > > die and not one trip to the vet may not a miller make, but > > > > > > > > > > > > > they certainly aren't doing their dogs and our breed any > > > > > > > > > > > > > favours. And if they must learn the hard way to overcome > > > > > > > > > > > > > their ignorance, it's doubly sad because the dogs are the > > > > > > > > > > > > > ones who pay. "Obviously if someone starts showing > > > > > > > > > > > > > distress they'll take them to the vet"--2 pups die but > > > > > > > > > > > > > that doesn't qualify as distress. Jesus--these are the > > > > > > > > > > > > > kind of people that keep me up at night worrying about my > > > > > > > > > > > > > own pups when I place them...they might mean well, but > > > > > > > > > > > > > unless these folks are willing to take some advice, as I > > > > > > > > > > > > > say, the dogs suffer as these people reinvent the wheel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did these people not do any history on the breed? First > > > > > > > > > > > > > and foremost, Bull Terriers are terriers--they are > > > > > > > > > > > > > tenacious with a prey drive that varies from dog to dog. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animal aggression is extremely common--I've had ONE dog in > > > > > > > > > > > > > 33 years that would NOT kill a cat immediately, given the > > > > > > > > > > > > > chance. Many seasoned breeders have lost at least one pup > > > > > > > > > > > > > to the bitch--hormones rage sometimes unpredictably with a > > > > > > > > > > > > > maternal bitch. And pup play can turn very rough > > > > > > > > > > > > > indeed--pack play can mimic a hunt and take down. Once a > > > > > > > > > > > > > serious puppy fight occurs, those 2 dogs can never be > > > > > > > > > > > > > together again. These folks may never encounter this with > > > > > > > > > > > > > their seven. Those of (the VERY many of)us who have seen > > > > > > > > > > > > > it are always prepared for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pitbulls are pretty solid temperment-wise--moreso than > > > > > > > > > > > > > BT's as we have so much dalmation(truly crazy dogs) in our > > > > > > > > > > > > > lines. BTs are only about 130 yrs old, so we throw back > > > > > > > > > > > > > readily to the past, depending on lineage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I asked what I could. Both dogs not litter-mates, one from > > > > > > > > > > > > Europe someplace, and the other with lineage that stems > > > > > > > > > > > > from a dog named Rufus. I told him to call their > > > > > > > > > > > > breeder(s) from whence these dogs came. And yes, they did > > > > > > > > > > > > buy them intending to breed them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First off, I have no idea who these people are. Millers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are in every state. They rush to leave Arizona with a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bitch about to whelp, toting the stud dog too...oh boy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't a "Miller" someone who repeatedly breeds and sells? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a family, that acquired two puppies from someone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with a litter and now those puppies, unfixed, are having > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their first, as far as I know, litter. I don't see the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > acumen or the knowledge that makes them prepared to breed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or sell, so I would hardly justify calling them "Millers". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, by the way, calling someone a miller is a detriment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to their reputations as to their treatment of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > animals. At the same time, some people just don't know how > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to care for animals and that includes preventing breeding > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from taking place. Whatever category these fit into, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rushing to judgement of one or the other is very much like > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thaya. And, by the way, not right, as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My three litters were whelped in November, February and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > July. If the pups are kept between say 75 and 85 degrees, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > out of the elements and the bitch is feeding them, eating > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and drinking herself and no one shows distress, then > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's probably fine. Without a vet evaluation, any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > supplement suggestion might actually cause problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, seventy five posts ago you couldn't say, keep them > > > > > > > > > > > > > > between 75 and 85 degrees and make sure the bitch is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > feeding them, was too hard to say? So far these are their > > > > > > > > > > > > > > conditions. Obviously if someone starts showing distress > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they will bring them to the vet, according to their vet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > visits in the past with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want these people's innocent pups to fail because of their's owner's lack of motivation? What the hell do I do to motivate them? Fine, you've done what you could, you're absolved, but I can't help them more than what what you have with the advice I've already given. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have suggested taking them to a vet. I have suggested > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > visiting Petco or Petsmart. I don't know what limitations > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there are upon them. They placed a fan in the room where > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the pups died thinking that it may have been too warm for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them. When they sought a fan to place there, I gave them > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the one their sister brought to me the year before because > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it is very quiet. But I am not sure that fan is an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > answer. Don't puppies need temperature controlled at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > certain levels? What levels are those? And, there is no > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > air conditioning....so I don't know if it would be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > okay....luckily it is summertime, so the heat that puppies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > need may be in the ambient temperature anyway. Luck may be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on their side to that extent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The puppies are all happily attached to the teats. The mom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is not exhibiting distress and the puppies are not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > screaming. But living in this vacuum is the next best > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thing to being left to nature, and knowledge of raising > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > litters like you have is a definite advantage if they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should be graced by your advice here. The reason why I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > won't give you or them each others' info is because I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > won't give this excuse for contact. You probably have it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > elsewhere and if they didn't quickly rush to leave Arizona > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > when they did, they may have been in better hands. They > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > got the dogs in Arizona. Pregnant mom was about to drop > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even in transit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where these people live, be it an apartment, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > home with/without a yard, etc, but again, BT's are not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cats and 7 dogs, especially bull breeds, are a significant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > handful. About 6 or 7 weeks, if that long, the puppy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fights begin in earnest and a singled-out pup can easily > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be killed if not monitered aLOT. Also, most male BT's need > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to be seperated by 8 weeks. The intact adult male can also > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kill the pups--sometimes out of the blue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What they're going through now is as easy as it'll get. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But there really isn't any specific information I can give > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > responsibly without a vet weighing in. It's been 14 years > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > since my last litter and worming, vac schedules, weaning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > proceedure, etc tend to change every 5 years or so. Again, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all things to ask an experienced VET. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have several BTCA breeders in Arizona, but I seriously > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doubt any of them know anything about these people. So why > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should, I don't know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for a monopoly over a breed, BT's are damned fortunate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to have a competent, monied AKC breed club like ours to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > underbreed and take responsibility the way we do, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > especially in rescue. Pit Bulls unfortunately do not. And > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that breed pays with many lives every single day in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shelters through out the world. There will always be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > millers, but peoples' right to do whatever they want > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to/with these animals does not MAKE it right. We clean up > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their messes to the tune of thousands of dollars every > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These are not Pits. They are the long-nosed, triangle eyed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dogs of the bullies. You say that a bullie becomes that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > aggressive towards babies? And that babies fight and kill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > each other? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do appreciate the fact that you have given these folks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hands-on all you have, but please ubderstand that I can't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > offer any more either--at this point if these morons can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand the need of a vet benchmark, we're strung. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Humane treatment of animals exists only in the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > controller's control, otherwise it is inhumane indeed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anything I offer may be in the face of what's going down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if we have a fading puppy or a zincy. Or mom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is on the verge of pseudo-eclampsia. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, what if we know that there are pups that are less > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > than a week old, and what do pups that are less than a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > week old, need? If there are no sounds of distress, is all > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > copasetic? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Usually idiots like > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this have luck on their sides and lose no more than 3 in a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > litter that size. If they don't go to the vet they'll lose > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more. But keep in mind, any info I give you to give to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them most likely won't be followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They won't follow the information they are not given, I am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure of that much. So, what info can you give? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do let me know what part of Calif we're talking about so I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can let regional know what suspect rescues maybe on the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > roster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They keep their animals, as I have seen with their cats, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and find homes for them themselves, and I do not know > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > where, how, or anything about that. I think that until > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > these puppies are weaned and placed they will have seven > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dogs to take care of, like they once had nine cats plus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > two dogs. I don't know these people well, but I have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed them sparsely. It is a beautiful breed, one which > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nobody deserves to have a sense of monopoly over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leesa> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, oh my god. Get the pups and mom to the vet!!!!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dogs are not my dogs. I have no control over, nay, not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even influence over, either they, or their owners. The > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > best I could do is to give suggestions to them, which they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may or may not take. I already see they are not taking > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advice I have given to them for monitoring the weight of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the puppies as a barometer of sufficient feeding. This is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the only expertise I have from cat rearing that I thought > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > might apply to dogs. I know nothing about dogs. I know > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they are being looked in on, and that is all I know. And I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > am not the one looking in on them because the mom does not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christ, that's where everything starts! Bull Terriers are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > very specialed and these people are very stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have read that there are indeed issues about Bullies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > such as the attachments to owners. I know that in the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bully community there is this thinking of who has to be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > connected to who. So wherever these dogs came from, either > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is renegade to or part of that, and there is no indication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of knowledge. There is no crate. I don't know what to say, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but these puppies need something if the vet is not being > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > consulted, the source is not being consulted, no books are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > being read, no pet shop is being visited, and all that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All I can do is be a nag, but I have to have information > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of what to be a nag about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >You don't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand--I CANNOT give you effective > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pat-one-size-fits-all answers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, what if the difference of helping these puppies and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the mom depend on what small answers you can give? I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > suppose I could go and research on the internet, but why > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do I have to research on the internet when I have a Bull > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terrier Expert with several litters behind them of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > experience, right here? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every discipline of study begins with the basics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These people seem too > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stupid to entertain what the real pros might offer (their > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > breeders or the BTCA) so why the hell listen to piecemeal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shit frm me? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are you calling them stupid? And why do you want their > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > innocent puppies to suffer for their lack of motivation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is truly sad, and you'd call such advice 'control'? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, the lack of advice is what I am calling control. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus, whatever--yopu're worse than the moronoc millers we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > deal with--whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not breeding any animals. I have two male cats, never > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > had a male and female breed under my watch, and do not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have any plans to breed animals, either. But if I did, I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know the difference between animal care and animal abuse > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and do not believe that breeding animals defines a cruelty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to those animals. The fact that there is a shortage of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > homes for animals is because en masse a campaign of animal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rejection is perpetrated by organized landlords. So, I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have nothing to do with any puppy mills when I am asking > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > simple questions that could help an innocent family of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dogs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >See you in rescue--thank god we're > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > here. You just don't understand--Bull Terriers are not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fucking cats!!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well Duh I've been saying that all along. When I had my > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cat litter in 1995 I had coaching from a cat boarding > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > facility in my area who by phone helped me get through the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > birthing. There weren't any cat associations who said I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > had to listen to my vet. The vet secretary told me to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > leave the mom alone, but the mom was rejecting. I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > interceded and saw her to the acceptance and rearing of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that litter. Mother and kittens did fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh my god... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geesh, is that screaming puppy a victim of fading puppy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > syndrome and what do we do to save it as most vets don't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know? Is the bitch attacking the pups and we don't know > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why? Is a pup so uncoordinated that it can't attach to a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple and can't feed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just maybe someone else KNOWS what the fuck is happening. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are no generalised answers and how-tos here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What kind of environment, what kind of bedding, what kind > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of ventilation, what kind of monitoring, what kind of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > checking, how often is the checking, these very simple > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > questions. Very basic questions. How often to feed the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mom? What to feed the mom? Can we supplement a puppies' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > intake? What can we use to supplement a puppies' intake? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When can we supplement a puppies' intake? Does it have to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be soft ground, hard ground, covered bedding, dark, light, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dim, sun in, sun out, like that. The basics. With cats it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is easy. I know with dogs it is harder. But I don't know > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how much harder. What are these answers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >These > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people have to actually get involved. And no, we can't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just give out 'puppy rearing tips' and call it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > responsible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would call this CONTROL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >And you know what? A hell of alot of breeders > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and mentors DO walk the puppy rearing people (and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sometimes their vets as well) through landmines--you just > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have no idea whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best thing to do is to distribute education. Not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hoarde knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am curious--why would you refuse to put people like this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in contact with me? Do you think I mean the breed harm? Do > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you think my take on what they should do is wrong? You're > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > looking at the standard party line of one of the BEST > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > national clubs in the sport of purebred dogs. We have the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pristine reputation we have BECAUSE of our approach, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > elitist that it sometimes seems. The breed and the dogs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are the priority, always. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have the privilege of associating with the BEST Bull > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terrier people in the WORLD, some of whom are my mentors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and co-breeders. And you'd 'sure as damn hell' not put > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them in contact with me??--well, thanks for adding to our > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > breeds' problems--I WILL remember that. You read about the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > horrors of puppy mills and you know what horse you backed, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sister. Go to one of their auctions sometime. You're > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shamefully clueless and you profoundly hurt a 'charming' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > breed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you tell your momma bullies, "now dear, everything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is alright, we have the best organization for caring for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your breed. Now look at this phone number. Feed that baby > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of yours, look at the phone number, and everything is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > alright because we are so good, we don't help spread puppy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mill behavior around. Oh, you have a problem? Well let's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see where that hotspot administrator is.....let's see, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > right here, you see this website? Go and put your paw on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that keyboard now, that's it.....now isn't everything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > better?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you or don't you have the ability to give advice that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people exercising their rights to breed their own dogs can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > take, even if they just didn't go and sterilize their dogs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the first place? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do appreciate your letting me know about this. Hmmm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They have both the dam and stud dog--I guess my first > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advice would be to contact the breeders where they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > acquired their dogs from and let them know they had (I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > presume) their first litter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where the dogs originated from, and it is not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an atmosphere where they welcome inquiries, even if it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > were my business, which it is not, where they got the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dogs, and it is also none of my business to call their > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > breeder instead of them calling their breeder. If they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have communication with their breeder, they are not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reflecting such insights by their communications with me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There are many reasons why > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > puppies in the early days die. A seasoned bully breeder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can be an irreplacable mentor, especially when dealing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with the complications a litter can bring. I had 3 litters > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from 1986 to my last in 1993 (the one Elvis was out of) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and we had every problem and malady, genetic and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > otherwise, in the book. Without my mentors I never would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have made it! So my first call would be to THEIR breeder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for immediate advice, both general as well as > | |
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