| re: Bully dog question | |
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Posted by: |
Leesa (gallytrotter@mchsi.com) 01:28 am UTC 07/26/07 |
| In reply to: | re: Bully dog question - pidunk 07:07 pm UTC 07/25/07 |
> Susan, I am really sad about hearing what you went through with Simon. If I would have known you I would have given you money and a place to board him. I honestly can't relate personally to what you went through--I come from a very different place, but the pain you went through is not completely removed from what we see with mill and rescue dogs. Our efforts all stem from wanting to keep both bullies and people from that place you were in. Again, I apologise for being a bitch. We're rife with good intentions, but sometimes we need to try harder. I'm so very sorry you lost Simone--we surround ourselves with lives shorter than our own and that sanctity's easily breached. I asked a co-breeder of mine, in the breed since the mid-60's, when they were here to evaluate the '88 litter how it ever becomes easy--she told me that when it does, it's time to get out. I apologise again. I have rethought and yes, this whole episode was indeed motivated by your compassion. You must however try to understand MY gut reaction from where I come from. Nothing hurts more than losing a beloved member of your family--except perhaps the inability to provide. I'm sorry Susan. What you did to help that bully family with was noble. I'll try to be better and kinder with future advice. I was the one here who dropped the ball. Please ask if anything is needed and I won't pry or press an agenda. I wish them, and you, the best. Leesa > > > You really don't seem capable of understanding anything > > about purebred dogs or the life's work that dedication > > often leads to. You quiz me about this litter of dogs' > > (which I strongly suspect is ficticious, just to spur such > > debate because this seems to be what you do, and you'd > > know I'd react to) wellbeing, tell me 2 have died, and > > think by me telling you the magical temperature range at > > which they should be kept will make all right. > > > I've told them to take the dogs to a vet. I said that the > litter needs to be checked on to make sure everything is > okay, and that the other puppies are okay. That was the > first thing I suggested. When I had the kitten litter in > 1995 I took the mom and kittens to a vet and had them > checked. But the vet, after telling me they were fine, did > not give me instructions for care. Instructions for care > had to come from independent sources outside of the vet. I > don't know why this is, that vets even when consulted keep > their knowledge to themselves. So, with those six babies > and mom I winged it, and found that one of them was not > getting access to the teat as much as needed, so I bought > KMR for her and gave her supplemental bottle feedings > which aided her growth so she normalized to the others. > Those babies all did well on the mom's teats, except for > that one. When I began giving solid food, one of the > others choked and I gave the kitten equivelant of heimlich > to unlodge the food, thus helping that kitten survive. I > did alot for that litter, the four months that I had them, > and was unable to find resources for finding homes for > them. I paid an adoption fee to the humane society with > their names and left it to god when I had to leave town > with my elder cat Simon in an emergency. > > With cats in the springtime, they call it "kitten season" > and there was no organization taking placeable animals > because they were full. This is a phenomenon that is > avoidable if people who want cats could have cats where > they live. Enough demand for cats really exists to > accomodate the entire population of animals, who are put > down instead. There is a problem with puppies of every > breed as well, because it is the rare landlord who will > permit animals, and so it is landlords who are behind the > glut of unplaced animals, not people who rent from them. > There are not enough rentable, liveable quarters for > people who want animals to go around for all the animal > lovers and their animals. > > When I was out on the street, I was there because I was > not going to let Simon be without his mommy, which in this > vicinity all too often means without his life, and I > needed my Simon. For two years, I had noplace to live, > because he had noplace to live with me. > > So, you should rethink my level of compassion, the amount > of time that I put in for an animal, and recall how much I > put in for Max to live, to live safely, and to live as > long as he could, back in 1976 to 1978, and that I wanted > to take him back when I had the ability to choose to do > so. The only thing I heard from Thaya was that he should > be put out of his misery when he was injured and I was > following vet's orders for healing a serious wound, and > that he was probably dead because her sister took him to > the vet to put him down, at which time it was the vet who > saved him, and then, it was Thaya who didn't let me have > him back again. So, who is the heartless, and who has the > heart? > > > > > >I responded > > with 'get them to a vet'--but 'Queenie' here doesn't 'get > > off her throne' as she tries to explain why that isn't > > sufficient, that these people most likely need more to > > keep the dogs viable. But you're too caught up in yourself > > to understand that isn't about you--or even me. > > If you have had three litters you have memories of the > care you took of those three litters and you have the > ability to give simple rudimentary advice of care, give > advice to avoid pitfalls, and to know the do's and dont's > that vets may not tell, and which I knew from my kitten > experience, I was not told. What common sense there may be > that vets assume might apply could be alien logic to > someone who does not know what an animal situation is > like. Three litters is alot of experience to share.....you > can remember when the mom did x and when the babies did x > and so you learned x, and so you can share all these > experiences, but you don't. Maybe you really didn't have > those litters at all. > > > > > >Or try > > even to see what I'm getting at, that the animals need > > more care and responsibility and me saying '75 degrees' > > doesn't change anything! > > Clearly. I hardly think that some twenty dogs found their > first human contacts with you, who can't do anything other > than read the numbers on a thermometer. > > > > > >Your vanity is just amazing. It's > > hard to believe you have a compassionate or understanding > > bone in your body--it's all about Susan. > > The whole of my energies are definitely not a whole lot > about Susan. > > > > Speaking of which, someone on the Rockman apparently DOES > > know you--I got an e-mail last night--someone has read > > this thread with you accusing me of trying to find > > you--this person sent me what they claim is your current > > address and several photos, (fairly unflattering) claimed > > to be very recent, of you which do resemble the ones on > > your website. They also have more details about your > > present life than I really cared to know. > > That's old news. I knew someone would. > > > > So, you're right on that one--someone IS watching you and > > paying alot of attention. > > Leesa > > That's old news too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you think our numbers in rescue are low? Could it > > > > be because we're RESCUING AND PLACING THE DOGS??? If we > > > > weren't doing it, the numbers would be much higher. > > > > > > You call the breed rare, then act like the low numbers of > > > unplaced dogs is your credit. The breed is rare because > > > you keep a lock and key on it. Dogs are popular when they > > > are shown. Dogs are obscure when they are not shown. > > > Somehow, you manage, your collective at any rate, manages > > > to keep these dogs rare, despite Spuds MacKenzie of yore. > > > These dogs are beautiful and very captivating to one's > > > spirit, so it is only their secrecy that keeps them rare. > > > They are charming enough to be in high demand and high > > > supply. Then, there may be a rescue problem, like with > > > other breeds. But you don't have that problem because you > > > are a close knit group keeping these dogs ostensibly to > > > yourselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for your total misunderstanding of the ACK's role in > > > > the sport of purebred dogs, whatever. Microchipping is a > > > > great conspiracy as well--whatever. Visit a shelter > > > > sometime, lady. > > > > > > I've been to a shelter recently, earlier this year. It was > > > a few weeks after my beloved Simon died and I was looking > > > around at what I might find in low-cost neuter for the two > > > others that I still have. After I took care of that > > > administrative business, I looked around at the cats and > > > the dogs. After reading article after article of thousands > > > of cats and dogs being put down week after week, I was > > > astonished to find that there were only about eight cats > > > in the cat portion, and about twelve dogs in the dog > > > portion, and there was one cat and one dog I'd happily had > > > taken home with me, one cat named Adonis which name I like > > > (and Jim knows why), and he was a large cat seeming to > > > need attention, and one sweet looking Shetland Sheepdog. I > > > was able to take neither of course, but I was appalled at > > > the tawdry amount of space for these animals that there > > > are such problems. If the culture was more conducive > > > instead of prohibitive about keeping pets, every pet would > > > have a home and every person who wants a pet would have > > > one. > > > > > > > > > > And my 'phony' interest is all a ruse to find you--hell > > > > you're HERE all the time anyway!! > > > > > > Yeah, I exist between the pixels, that's one of my > > > addresses...doh! > > > > > > By the way, I was at the Simpson Movie World Premier > > > tonight, didn't see the movie (wasn't there for that) but > > > had a really scrumptious Cherry syrup and sprinkles topped > > > donut they were giving out, fresh out of the oven. Yum! > > > They had a band wearing yellow tee shirts playing the > > > theme and someone was saying something to a rather > > > unattentive crowd. I didn't see any attempts on their part > > > of making rubber puppets as characters for the crowd, they > > > just spewed out bunches of yellow confetti from machines > > > every once in awhile. People on the sidelines who were > > > there quickly left and went about their business because > > > the planners of the event did not do anything worthwhile > > > for it at all. But there was sure a lot of yellow. Yellow > > > carpet instead of red carpet, and above one theater > > > marquee they had the blue "hair" of Margie's, and on the > > > other theater's marquee they had some other something in > > > yellow. For color and pomp, I'd give them a seven, for > > > event planning, I'd give them a three, for star power, I'd > > > give them a one. And that's generous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And these folks are going to make some money breeding > > > > dogs--no one doing right makes money--they break even > > > > under the best of circimstances--unless of course they're > > > > millers. Then doing it right doen't matter--because the > > > > animals are then commodities. > > > > > > I don't know anything about such kinds of enterprises. I > > > just hope they do the right things for the dogs, and that > > > is all. I know that they know alot of people, probably > > > already have homes picked out for the puppies, or at least > > > I hope that they will have an easy time finding them > > > homes. I don't think they've ever sold dogs before. If > > > they did they would show a greater expertise than I'm > > > seeing. > > > > > > > > > > They have the litter in a bathroom at work??? Oh my god. > > > > Sounds like you all deserve each other on about every > > > > level. > > > > > > > > > Really? I didn't bring them there. And I'm not a bad > > > person for asking how they should be cared for. YOU are > > > disgraceful in your behavior by turning it into this. But > > > I should have known already. I gave you a chance to do the > > > right thing here and you can't. You can only deride me, > > > and criticise them for how dare they breed dogs without > > > your blessings? Get off your throne, Queenie. This isn't > > > your kingdom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess I can't imagine anyone at all buying dogs to > > > > > > breed, mpst likely with the intention of selling the > > > > > > puppies, without papers--from a price perspective alone, > > > > > > the value can increase several hundred dollars, > > > > > > respectively. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not capable of making judgements about such things. > > > > > Whether they have the blessings of their breeder and just > > > > > are private about it, whether they are doing things right > > > > > and playing dumb, whether they have the papers and selling > > > > > with or without papers, don't know. But I know that they > > > > > like having small opportunities to make money and don't > > > > > think of trivialiies like what everyone else is supposed > > > > > to do, in their decision making. Whatever they are doing, > > > > > I know about it because they put it in front of my nose, > > > > > so much so that I can't use my bathroom at work, because > > > > > they have the litter there. Otherwise in all respects it > > > > > is none of my business because as far as these dogs are > > > > > concerned I do not know how to judge proper treatment and > > > > > they are being fed and looked after by their owners. It is > > > > > none of my business, and I only wanted to give them > > > > > helpful advice to do my part to help the animals. If the > > > > > purpose of your inquiry is to find me through them under > > > > > your guise of involvement with a bureaucracy, then I won't > > > > > help you do that, nor should anyone else help you to do > > > > > that, and if you r purpose is to promote the bureacracy > > > > > (such as Thaya is prone to do as long as it is a > > > > > bureacracy she likes) that is also something that > > > > > is.....anti-democratic. Yes, anti-democratic, something > > > > > that is against freedoms in all their forms, and something > > > > > that is summarily controlling without a right to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Really try to get a name as to where they > > > > > > came from--a town, breeder, bloodline, anything--I'd > > > > > > really appreciate it. > > > > > > > > > > None of my business. None of your business. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I wonder if the 'European dog' came > > > > > > from one of the peple who land at airports in the US, from > > > > > > basically all over Europe, with a litter of pups to sell. > > > > > > > > > > If they came from there at all. Don't know. None of my > > > > > business, none of your business. Let a dog have his life, > > > > > let the people have their dogs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This happened to a guy in Dubuque, Iowa a few years back. > > > > > > They run an ad in a major city newspaper (the Chicago > > > > > > Times this one was in) and you go meet them at the airport > > > > > > to pick and buy your pup on site! They are registered with > > > > > > these 'National Pet Registry'-type papers--just a totally > > > > > > bogus registry. And they charge often over a $1000 a pup. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, they see where there is a market to sell > > > > > puppies. A puppy is not a commodity. A puppy is a puppy. > > > > > You downgrade it like there is a black market, when all > > > > > you want to do is to promote the black market instead, > > > > > then decrie its existence. Just get off it. > > > > > > > > > > The AKC is a private self-originated organization and they > > > > > do not have the right to be the exclusive authority on who > > > > > traces what lineage of what dogs and who issues papers for > > > > > them either. There is no such thing, in that regard, as > > > > > bogus, unless those papers declare themselves fraudulently > > > > > to be AKC papers. You are saying that this other registry > > > > > exists on its own terms with its own names. Just because > > > > > it is a competitor, does not mean it is bogus. But you > > > > > don't seem riled about Smith, in the slightest. Hmmmm. > > > > > Interesting contradiction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rescue has been swamped out east with the pups as they > > > > > > have health maladies like any bully lines, but no breeders > > > > > > to help take care of the puppy people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are all forms of rescue organizations in all over > > > > > the country for all breeds that are beset with problemed > > > > > animals. It is not just bullies, and my searches showed > > > > > that at the present time there are a total of around > > > > > twelve or twenty bullies in rescue waiting for adoption at > > > > > this time in the whole country. We are not talking about > > > > > epidemics here. Your sense of perspective is not just > > > > > misplaced but conveniently so. > > > > > > > > > > There were times when I wanted to find ways to help a > > > > > couple of dogs but I didn't know where or how to, a couple > > > > > of dogs, one whom was descended from Benji, each the same > > > > > breed, the Benji dog being the mother of the other. One > > > > > after another, they somehow, according to the owner, dived > > > > > into their home swimming pool to kill themselves, and that > > > > > didn't seem right to me, but what am I to do about that? > > > > > Before that, I did see the dogs begging for the owner's > > > > > attention to go out and pee, only to pee on the floor > > > > > after being ignored. If I believed that this person would > > > > > be the one in charge of these bullies, I would not go to > > > > > you, but the SPCA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't believe anyone legitimate would sell a pup without > > > > > > AKC papers. It's a critical part of purebred dogs, > > > > > > especially breeding. > > > > > > > > > > In a market wanting dogs of a breed, there are many who > > > > > don't care about papers. If they did, the market would not > > > > > be so proliferant, and, the AKC is a bureaucracy, not a > > > > > legal authority, and nothing that gives anyone any right > > > > > to supplicate an owner's authority for what they shall do > > > > > to secure homes for their dogs, sold, given, or otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't suppose they microchipped the dogs either--you > > > > > > might mention that bullies are stolen regularly as well > > > > > > and this is an excellent way for permanent ID. > > > > > > > > > > Getting into the bureacratic thing again. You are > > > > > desperate for your bulli-share of attention with respect > > > > > with these animals that only needed a few bits of helpful > > > > > advice, but you are not much into giving helpful advice, > > > > > are you? You want to control, control, control, and > > > > > control some more. That is how the RH cult began. Right > > > > > here. This behavior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you again for finding any of this out--I'd really > > > > > > like to know where these dogs came from and from who. > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > Why don't you put your energy to the ones who are on the > > > > > six bullie message boards, that you are absent from? You > > > > > have a phony interest. I'm done with this topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Susan, please grant me a huge favour here--try to find out what the the dog and bitch's registered names are. Especially Rufus. Also, are they white or coloured bullies? > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Colored bullies. The mom has a black/brown face. The dad, > > > > > > > I haven't seen him in several months, not recently, but > > > > > > > not white, best as I could recall. I thought they were > > > > > > > siblings because they were puppies of the same age/size > > > > > > > growing up. But now being told they aren't. The answer I'd > > > > > > > get to their registered names would be that they don't > > > > > > > know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This family may not be millers themselves, but I'd > > > > > > > > > > strongly suspect miller involvement. As I said, there are > > > > > > > > > > millers in every state and odds are very high one figures > > > > > > > > > > in with these 2 dogs somewhere. So this family bought 2 > > > > > > > > > > puppies from another family who had a litter--are you > > > > > > > > > > implying these dogs were littermates and now the bitch is > > > > > > > > > > in whelp to her brother? Or was this family having a > > > > > > > > > > number of different litters at the same time? Gosh, I bet > > > > > > > > > > everyone's papered as well...and yeah, I do 'rush to > > > > > > > > > > judgement' in cases like this because 95% of the time this > > > > > > > > > > is how it plays out over and over--I've watched it for 20 > > > > > > > > > > years now. Many people are guilty of rushing to judgement, > > > > > > > > > > by the way--not just 'Thaya' and me. And of course calling > > > > > > > > > > someone a miller is a detriment. People allowing 2 pups to > > > > > > > > > > die and not one trip to the vet may not a miller make, but > > > > > > > > > > they certainly aren't doing their dogs and our breed any > > > > > > > > > > favours. And if they must learn the hard way to overcome > > > > > > > > > > their ignorance, it's doubly sad because the dogs are the > > > > > > > > > > ones who pay. "Obviously if someone starts showing > > > > > > > > > > distress they'll take them to the vet"--2 pups die but > > > > > > > > > > that doesn't qualify as distress. Jesus--these are the > > > > > > > > > > kind of people that keep me up at night worrying about my > > > > > > > > > > own pups when I place them...they might mean well, but > > > > > > > > > > unless these folks are willing to take some advice, as I > > > > > > > > > > say, the dogs suffer as these people reinvent the wheel. > > > > > > > > > > Did these people not do any history on the breed? First > > > > > > > > > > and foremost, Bull Terriers are terriers--they are > > > > > > > > > > tenacious with a prey drive that varies from dog to dog. > > > > > > > > > > Animal aggression is extremely common--I've had ONE dog in > > > > > > > > > > 33 years that would NOT kill a cat immediately, given the > > > > > > > > > > chance. Many seasoned breeders have lost at least one pup > > > > > > > > > > to the bitch--hormones rage sometimes unpredictably with a > > > > > > > > > > maternal bitch. And pup play can turn very rough > > > > > > > > > > indeed--pack play can mimic a hunt and take down. Once a > > > > > > > > > > serious puppy fight occurs, those 2 dogs can never be > > > > > > > > > > together again. These folks may never encounter this with > > > > > > > > > > their seven. Those of (the VERY many of)us who have seen > > > > > > > > > > it are always prepared for it. > > > > > > > > > > Pitbulls are pretty solid temperment-wise--moreso than > > > > > > > > > > BT's as we have so much dalmation(truly crazy dogs) in our > > > > > > > > > > lines. BTs are only about 130 yrs old, so we throw back > > > > > > > > > > readily to the past, depending on lineage. > > > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I asked what I could. Both dogs not litter-mates, one from > > > > > > > > > Europe someplace, and the other with lineage that stems > > > > > > > > > from a dog named Rufus. I told him to call their > > > > > > > > > breeder(s) from whence these dogs came. And yes, they did > > > > > > > > > buy them intending to breed them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First off, I have no idea who these people are. Millers > > > > > > > > > > > > are in every state. They rush to leave Arizona with a > > > > > > > > > > > > bitch about to whelp, toting the stud dog too...oh boy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't a "Miller" someone who repeatedly breeds and sells? > > > > > > > > > > > This is a family, that acquired two puppies from someone > > > > > > > > > > > with a litter and now those puppies, unfixed, are having > > > > > > > > > > > their first, as far as I know, litter. I don't see the > > > > > > > > > > > acumen or the knowledge that makes them prepared to breed > > > > > > > > > > > or sell, so I would hardly justify calling them "Millers". > > > > > > > > > > > And, by the way, calling someone a miller is a detriment > > > > > > > > > > > to their reputations as to their treatment of the > > > > > > > > > > > animals. At the same time, some people just don't know how > > > > > > > > > > > to care for animals and that includes preventing breeding > > > > > > > > > > > from taking place. Whatever category these fit into, > > > > > > > > > > > rushing to judgement of one or the other is very much like > > > > > > > > > > > Thaya. And, by the way, not right, as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My three litters were whelped in November, February and > > > > > > > > > > > > July. If the pups are kept between say 75 and 85 degrees, > > > > > > > > > > > > out of the elements and the bitch is feeding them, eating > > > > > > > > > > > > and drinking herself and no one shows distress, then > > > > > > > > > > > > that's probably fine. Without a vet evaluation, any > > > > > > > > > > > > supplement suggestion might actually cause problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, seventy five posts ago you couldn't say, keep them > > > > > > > > > > > between 75 and 85 degrees and make sure the bitch is > > > > > > > > > > > feeding them, was too hard to say? So far these are their > > > > > > > > > > > conditions. Obviously if someone starts showing distress > > > > > > > > > > > they will bring them to the vet, according to their vet > > > > > > > > > > > visits in the past with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want these people's innocent pups to fail because of their's owner's lack of motivation? What the hell do I do to motivate them? Fine, you've done what you could, you're absolved, but I can't help them more than what what you have with the advice I've already given. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have suggested taking them to a vet. I have suggested > > > > > > > > > > > > > visiting Petco or Petsmart. I don't know what limitations > > > > > > > > > > > > > there are upon them. They placed a fan in the room where > > > > > > > > > > > > > the pups died thinking that it may have been too warm for > > > > > > > > > > > > > them. When they sought a fan to place there, I gave them > > > > > > > > > > > > > the one their sister brought to me the year before because > > > > > > > > > > > > > it is very quiet. But I am not sure that fan is an > > > > > > > > > > > > > answer. Don't puppies need temperature controlled at > > > > > > > > > > > > > certain levels? What levels are those? And, there is no > > > > > > > > > > > > > air conditioning....so I don't know if it would be > > > > > > > > > > > > > okay....luckily it is summertime, so the heat that puppies > > > > > > > > > > > > > need may be in the ambient temperature anyway. Luck may be > > > > > > > > > > > > > on their side to that extent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The puppies are all happily attached to the teats. The mom > > > > > > > > > > > > > is not exhibiting distress and the puppies are not > > > > > > > > > > > > > screaming. But living in this vacuum is the next best > > > > > > > > > > > > > thing to being left to nature, and knowledge of raising > > > > > > > > > > > > > litters like you have is a definite advantage if they > > > > > > > > > > > > > should be graced by your advice here. The reason why I > > > > > > > > > > > > > won't give you or them each others' info is because I > > > > > > > > > > > > > won't give this excuse for contact. You probably have it > > > > > > > > > > > > > elsewhere and if they didn't quickly rush to leave Arizona > > > > > > > > > > > > > when they did, they may have been in better hands. They > > > > > > > > > > > > > got the dogs in Arizona. Pregnant mom was about to drop > > > > > > > > > > > > > even in transit. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where these people live, be it an apartment, > > > > > > > > > > > > home with/without a yard, etc, but again, BT's are not > > > > > > > > > > > > cats and 7 dogs, especially bull breeds, are a significant > > > > > > > > > > > > handful. About 6 or 7 weeks, if that long, the puppy > > > > > > > > > > > > fights begin in earnest and a singled-out pup can easily > > > > > > > > > > > > be killed if not monitered aLOT. Also, most male BT's need > > > > > > > > > > > > to be seperated by 8 weeks. The intact adult male can also > > > > > > > > > > > > kill the pups--sometimes out of the blue. > > > > > > > > > > > > What they're going through now is as easy as it'll get. > > > > > > > > > > > > But there really isn't any specific information I can give > > > > > > > > > > > > responsibly without a vet weighing in. It's been 14 years > > > > > > > > > > > > since my last litter and worming, vac schedules, weaning > > > > > > > > > > > > proceedure, etc tend to change every 5 years or so. Again, > > > > > > > > > > > > all things to ask an experienced VET. > > > > > > > > > > > > We have several BTCA breeders in Arizona, but I seriously > > > > > > > > > > > > doubt any of them know anything about these people. So why > > > > > > > > > > > > I should, I don't know. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for a monopoly over a breed, BT's are damned fortunate > > > > > > > > > > > > to have a competent, monied AKC breed club like ours to > > > > > > > > > > > > underbreed and take responsibility the way we do, > > > > > > > > > > > > especially in rescue. Pit Bulls unfortunately do not. And > > > > > > > > > > > > that breed pays with many lives every single day in > > > > > > > > > > > > shelters through out the world. There will always be > > > > > > > > > > > > millers, but peoples' right to do whatever they want > > > > > > > > > > > > to/with these animals does not MAKE it right. We clean up > > > > > > > > > > > > their messes to the tune of thousands of dollars every > > > > > > > > > > > > year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These are not Pits. They are the long-nosed, triangle eyed > > > > > > > > > > > dogs of the bullies. You say that a bullie becomes that > > > > > > > > > > > aggressive towards babies? And that babies fight and kill > > > > > > > > > > > each other? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do appreciate the fact that you have given these folks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hands-on all you have, but please ubderstand that I can't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > offer any more either--at this point if these morons can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand the need of a vet benchmark, we're strung. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Humane treatment of animals exists only in the > > > > > > > > > > > > > controller's control, otherwise it is inhumane indeed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anything I offer may be in the face of what's going down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if we have a fading puppy or a zincy. Or mom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is on the verge of pseudo-eclampsia. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, what if we know that there are pups that are less > > > > > > > > > > > > > than a week old, and what do pups that are less than a > > > > > > > > > > > > > week old, need? If there are no sounds of distress, is all > > > > > > > > > > > > > copasetic? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Usually idiots like > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this have luck on their sides and lose no more than 3 in a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > litter that size. If they don't go to the vet they'll lose > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more. But keep in mind, any info I give you to give to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them most likely won't be followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They won't follow the information they are not given, I am > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure of that much. So, what info can you give? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do let me know what part of Calif we're talking about so I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can let regional know what suspect rescues maybe on the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > roster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They keep their animals, as I have seen with their cats, > > > > > > > > > > > > > and find homes for them themselves, and I do not know > > > > > > > > > > > > > where, how, or anything about that. I think that until > > > > > > > > > > > > > these puppies are weaned and placed they will have seven > > > > > > > > > > > > > dogs to take care of, like they once had nine cats plus > > > > > > > > > > > > > two dogs. I don't know these people well, but I have > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed them sparsely. It is a beautiful breed, one which > > > > > > > > > > > > > nobody deserves to have a sense of monopoly over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leesa> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, oh my god. Get the pups and mom to the vet!!!!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dogs are not my dogs. I have no control over, nay, not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even influence over, either they, or their owners. The > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > best I could do is to give suggestions to them, which they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may or may not take. I already see they are not taking > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advice I have given to them for monitoring the weight of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the puppies as a barometer of sufficient feeding. This is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the only expertise I have from cat rearing that I thought > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > might apply to dogs. I know nothing about dogs. I know > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they are being looked in on, and that is all I know. And I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > am not the one looking in on them because the mom does not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christ, that's where everything starts! Bull Terriers are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > very specialed and these people are very stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have read that there are indeed issues about Bullies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > such as the attachments to owners. I know that in the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bully community there is this thinking of who has to be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > connected to who. So wherever these dogs came from, either > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is renegade to or part of that, and there is no indication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of knowledge. There is no crate. I don't know what to say, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but these puppies need something if the vet is not being > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > consulted, the source is not being consulted, no books are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > being read, no pet shop is being visited, and all that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All I can do is be a nag, but I have to have information > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of what to be a nag about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >You don't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand--I CANNOT give you effective > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pat-one-size-fits-all answers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, what if the difference of helping these puppies and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the mom depend on what small answers you can give? I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > suppose I could go and research on the internet, but why > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do I have to research on the internet when I have a Bull > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terrier Expert with several litters behind them of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > experience, right here? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every discipline of study begins with the basics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These people seem too > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stupid to entertain what the real pros might offer (their > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > breeders or the BTCA) so why the hell listen to piecemeal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shit frm me? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are you calling them stupid? And why do you want their > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > innocent puppies to suffer for their lack of motivation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is truly sad, and you'd call such advice 'control'? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, the lack of advice is what I am calling control. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus, whatever--yopu're worse than the moronoc millers we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > deal with--whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not breeding any animals. I have two male cats, never > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > had a male and female breed under my watch, and do not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have any plans to breed animals, either. But if I did, I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know the difference between animal care and animal abuse > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and do not believe that breeding animals defines a cruelty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to those animals. The fact that there is a shortage of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > homes for animals is because en masse a campaign of animal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rejection is perpetrated by organized landlords. So, I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have nothing to do with any puppy mills when I am asking > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > simple questions that could help an innocent family of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dogs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >See you in rescue--thank god we're > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > here. You just don't understand--Bull Terriers are not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fucking cats!!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well Duh I've been saying that all along. When I had my > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cat litter in 1995 I had coaching from a cat boarding > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > facility in my area who by phone helped me get through the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > birthing. There weren't any cat associations who said I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > had to listen to my vet. The vet secretary told me to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > leave the mom alone, but the mom was rejecting. I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > interceded and saw her to the acceptance and rearing of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that litter. Mother and kittens did fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh my god... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geesh, is that screaming puppy a victim of fading puppy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > syndrome and what do we do to save it as most vets don't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know? Is the bitch attacking the pups and we don't know > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why? Is a pup so uncoordinated that it can't attach to a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple and can't feed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just maybe someone else KNOWS what the fuck is happening. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are no generalised answers and how-tos here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What kind of environment, what kind of bedding, what kind > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of ventilation, what kind of monitoring, what kind of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > checking, how often is the checking, these very simple > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > questions. Very basic questions. How often to feed the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mom? What to feed the mom? Can we supplement a puppies' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > intake? What can we use to supplement a puppies' intake? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When can we supplement a puppies' intake? Does it have to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be soft ground, hard ground, covered bedding, dark, light, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dim, sun in, sun out, like that. The basics. With cats it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is easy. I know with dogs it is harder. But I don't know > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how much harder. What are these answers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >These > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people have to actually get involved. And no, we can't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just give out 'puppy rearing tips' and call it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > responsible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would call this CONTROL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >And you know what? A hell of alot of breeders > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and mentors DO walk the puppy rearing people (and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sometimes their vets as well) through landmines--you just > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have no idea whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best thing to do is to distribute education. Not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hoarde knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am curious--why would you refuse to put people like this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in contact with me? Do you think I mean the breed harm? Do > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you think my take on what they should do is wrong? You're > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > looking at the standard party line of one of the BEST > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > national clubs in the sport of purebred dogs. We have the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pristine reputation we have BECAUSE of our approach, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > elitist that it sometimes seems. The breed and the dogs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are the priority, always. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have the privilege of associating with the BEST Bull > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terrier people in the WORLD, some of whom are my mentors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and co-breeders. And you'd 'sure as damn hell' not put > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them in contact with me??--well, thanks for adding to our > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > breeds' problems--I WILL remember that. You read about the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > horrors of puppy mills and you know what horse you backed, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sister. Go to one of their auctions sometime. You're > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shamefully clueless and you profoundly hurt a 'charming' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > breed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you tell your momma bullies, "now dear, everything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is alright, we have the best organization for caring for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your breed. Now look at this phone number. Feed that baby > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of yours, look at the phone number, and everything is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > alright because we are so good, we don't help spread puppy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mill behavior around. Oh, you have a problem? Well let's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see where that hotspot administrator is.....let's see, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > right here, you see this website? Go and put your paw on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that keyboard now, that's it.....now isn't everything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > better?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you or don't you have the ability to give advice that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people exercising their rights to breed their own dogs can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > take, even if they just didn't go and sterilize their dogs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the first place? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do appreciate your letting me know about this. Hmmm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They have both the dam and stud dog--I guess my first > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advice would be to contact the breeders where they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > acquired their dogs from and let them know they had (I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > presume) their first litter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where the dogs originated from, and it is not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an atmosphere where they welcome inquiries, even if it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > were my business, which it is not, where they got the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dogs, and it is also none of my business to call their > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > breeder instead of them calling their breeder. If they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have communication with their breeder, they are not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reflecting such insights by their communications with me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There are many reasons why > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > puppies in the early days die. A seasoned bully breeder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can be an irreplacable mentor, especially when dealing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with the complications a litter can bring. I had 3 litters > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from 1986 to my last in 1993 (the one Elvis was out of) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and we had every problem and malady, genetic and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > otherwise, in the book. Without my mentors I never would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have made it! So my first call would be to THEIR breeder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for immediate advice, both general as well as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bloodline-specific. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They seem uninterested in the bloodline or genetic issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My next IMMEDIATE stop would be to a competent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bully-knowledgable vet and get everyone evaluated, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > including the bitch. It's probably too late to remove > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dewclaws, but I'd definately get an evaluation and be sure > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that mom has expelled all afterbirth and whatnot including > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > her milk output and general after-whelp condition, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > focusing on pseuso-eclampsia, a calcium drop somewhat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unique to Bull Terriers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are not taking the dogs to any vets at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If for some reason they can't access their breeder I'd go > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to the Bull Terrier Club of America's website (BTCA--do a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search) and find the closest regional club. We have alot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in California and we can arrange a home visit if need > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > merits from a member of the closest club. They are an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > invaluable resource with a list of BTCA approved vets. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have them tell the regional club contact that I sent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them--I'm the Iowa rescue 'hotspotter' if they don't know > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me straightaway and am on the BTCA membership list for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2007. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They don't even have time, they say, to go to Petco. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My e-mail should be on the Club's website, if it's not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > been updated from the old aol, it's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gallytrotter@mchsi.com. Have them e-mail me with their > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > phone and I'm more than willing to call them and make a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > personal referral and be of any assistance possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, thank you Susan for setting things aside and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > letting us help these folks and their bullies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We'll do the best to help these folks and their babies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I sure as damn hell won't put them in contact with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What basic care do puppies of any breed need? I know only > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of kittens, and do not know anything about puppies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | |
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