not logged in
| re: Bully dog question | |
Posted by:  |
pidunk 04:12 am UTC 07/24/07 |
| In reply to: | re: Bully dog question - Leesa 02:50 am UTC 07/24/07 |
> > > > Susan, please grant me a huge favour here--try to find out what the the dog and bitch's registered names are. Especially Rufus. Also, are they white or coloured bullies? > Thanks! > Leesa Colored bullies. The mom has a black/brown face. The dad, I haven't seen him in several months, not recently, but not white, best as I could recall. I thought they were siblings because they were puppies of the same age/size growing up. But now being told they aren't. The answer I'd get to their registered names would be that they don't know. > > > > > This family may not be millers themselves, but I'd > > > strongly suspect miller involvement. As I said, there are > > > millers in every state and odds are very high one figures > > > in with these 2 dogs somewhere. So this family bought 2 > > > puppies from another family who had a litter--are you > > > implying these dogs were littermates and now the bitch is > > > in whelp to her brother? Or was this family having a > > > number of different litters at the same time? Gosh, I bet > > > everyone's papered as well...and yeah, I do 'rush to > > > judgement' in cases like this because 95% of the time this > > > is how it plays out over and over--I've watched it for 20 > > > years now. Many people are guilty of rushing to judgement, > > > by the way--not just 'Thaya' and me. And of course calling > > > someone a miller is a detriment. People allowing 2 pups to > > > die and not one trip to the vet may not a miller make, but > > > they certainly aren't doing their dogs and our breed any > > > favours. And if they must learn the hard way to overcome > > > their ignorance, it's doubly sad because the dogs are the > > > ones who pay. "Obviously if someone starts showing > > > distress they'll take them to the vet"--2 pups die but > > > that doesn't qualify as distress. Jesus--these are the > > > kind of people that keep me up at night worrying about my > > > own pups when I place them...they might mean well, but > > > unless these folks are willing to take some advice, as I > > > say, the dogs suffer as these people reinvent the wheel. > > > Did these people not do any history on the breed? First > > > and foremost, Bull Terriers are terriers--they are > > > tenacious with a prey drive that varies from dog to dog. > > > Animal aggression is extremely common--I've had ONE dog in > > > 33 years that would NOT kill a cat immediately, given the > > > chance. Many seasoned breeders have lost at least one pup > > > to the bitch--hormones rage sometimes unpredictably with a > > > maternal bitch. And pup play can turn very rough > > > indeed--pack play can mimic a hunt and take down. Once a > > > serious puppy fight occurs, those 2 dogs can never be > > > together again. These folks may never encounter this with > > > their seven. Those of (the VERY many of)us who have seen > > > it are always prepared for it. > > > Pitbulls are pretty solid temperment-wise--moreso than > > > BT's as we have so much dalmation(truly crazy dogs) in our > > > lines. BTs are only about 130 yrs old, so we throw back > > > readily to the past, depending on lineage. > > > Leesa > > > > > > > I asked what I could. Both dogs not litter-mates, one from > > Europe someplace, and the other with lineage that stems > > from a dog named Rufus. I told him to call their > > breeder(s) from whence these dogs came. And yes, they did > > buy them intending to breed them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First off, I have no idea who these people are. Millers > > > > > are in every state. They rush to leave Arizona with a > > > > > bitch about to whelp, toting the stud dog too...oh boy. > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't a "Miller" someone who repeatedly breeds and sells? > > > > This is a family, that acquired two puppies from someone > > > > with a litter and now those puppies, unfixed, are having > > > > their first, as far as I know, litter. I don't see the > > > > acumen or the knowledge that makes them prepared to breed > > > > or sell, so I would hardly justify calling them "Millers". > > > > And, by the way, calling someone a miller is a detriment > > > > to their reputations as to their treatment of the > > > > animals. At the same time, some people just don't know how > > > > to care for animals and that includes preventing breeding > > > > from taking place. Whatever category these fit into, > > > > rushing to judgement of one or the other is very much like > > > > Thaya. And, by the way, not right, as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > My three litters were whelped in November, February and > > > > > July. If the pups are kept between say 75 and 85 degrees, > > > > > out of the elements and the bitch is feeding them, eating > > > > > and drinking herself and no one shows distress, then > > > > > that's probably fine. Without a vet evaluation, any > > > > > supplement suggestion might actually cause problems. > > > > > > > > > > So, seventy five posts ago you couldn't say, keep them > > > > between 75 and 85 degrees and make sure the bitch is > > > > feeding them, was too hard to say? So far these are their > > > > conditions. Obviously if someone starts showing distress > > > > they will bring them to the vet, according to their vet > > > > visits in the past with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want these people's innocent pups to fail because of their's owner's lack of motivation? What the hell do I do to motivate them? Fine, you've done what you could, you're absolved, but I can't help them more than what what you have with the advice I've already given. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have suggested taking them to a vet. I have suggested > > > > > > visiting Petco or Petsmart. I don't know what limitations > > > > > > there are upon them. They placed a fan in the room where > > > > > > the pups died thinking that it may have been too warm for > > > > > > them. When they sought a fan to place there, I gave them > > > > > > the one their sister brought to me the year before because > > > > > > it is very quiet. But I am not sure that fan is an > > > > > > answer. Don't puppies need temperature controlled at > > > > > > certain levels? What levels are those? And, there is no > > > > > > air conditioning....so I don't know if it would be > > > > > > okay....luckily it is summertime, so the heat that puppies > > > > > > need may be in the ambient temperature anyway. Luck may be > > > > > > on their side to that extent. > > > > > > > > > > > > The puppies are all happily attached to the teats. The mom > > > > > > is not exhibiting distress and the puppies are not > > > > > > screaming. But living in this vacuum is the next best > > > > > > thing to being left to nature, and knowledge of raising > > > > > > litters like you have is a definite advantage if they > > > > > > should be graced by your advice here. The reason why I > > > > > > won't give you or them each others' info is because I > > > > > > won't give this excuse for contact. You probably have it > > > > > > elsewhere and if they didn't quickly rush to leave Arizona > > > > > > when they did, they may have been in better hands. They > > > > > > got the dogs in Arizona. Pregnant mom was about to drop > > > > > > even in transit. > > > > > I don't know where these people live, be it an apartment, > > > > > home with/without a yard, etc, but again, BT's are not > > > > > cats and 7 dogs, especially bull breeds, are a significant > > > > > handful. About 6 or 7 weeks, if that long, the puppy > > > > > fights begin in earnest and a singled-out pup can easily > > > > > be killed if not monitered aLOT. Also, most male BT's need > > > > > to be seperated by 8 weeks. The intact adult male can also > > > > > kill the pups--sometimes out of the blue. > > > > > What they're going through now is as easy as it'll get. > > > > > But there really isn't any specific information I can give > > > > > responsibly without a vet weighing in. It's been 14 years > > > > > since my last litter and worming, vac schedules, weaning > > > > > proceedure, etc tend to change every 5 years or so. Again, > > > > > all things to ask an experienced VET. > > > > > We have several BTCA breeders in Arizona, but I seriously > > > > > doubt any of them know anything about these people. So why > > > > > I should, I don't know. > > > > > As for a monopoly over a breed, BT's are damned fortunate > > > > > to have a competent, monied AKC breed club like ours to > > > > > underbreed and take responsibility the way we do, > > > > > especially in rescue. Pit Bulls unfortunately do not. And > > > > > that breed pays with many lives every single day in > > > > > shelters through out the world. There will always be > > > > > millers, but peoples' right to do whatever they want > > > > > to/with these animals does not MAKE it right. We clean up > > > > > their messes to the tune of thousands of dollars every > > > > > year. > > > > > > > > > > > > These are not Pits. They are the long-nosed, triangle eyed > > > > dogs of the bullies. You say that a bullie becomes that > > > > aggressive towards babies? And that babies fight and kill > > > > each other? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do appreciate the fact that you have given these folks > > > > > > > hands-on all you have, but please ubderstand that I can't > > > > > > > offer any more either--at this point if these morons can > > > > > > > understand the need of a vet benchmark, we're strung. > > > > > > > > > > > > Humane treatment of animals exists only in the > > > > > > controller's control, otherwise it is inhumane indeed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anything I offer may be in the face of what's going down. > > > > > > > I don't know if we have a fading puppy or a zincy. Or mom > > > > > > > is on the verge of pseudo-eclampsia. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, what if we know that there are pups that are less > > > > > > than a week old, and what do pups that are less than a > > > > > > week old, need? If there are no sounds of distress, is all > > > > > > copasetic? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Usually idiots like > > > > > > > this have luck on their sides and lose no more than 3 in a > > > > > > > litter that size. If they don't go to the vet they'll lose > > > > > > > more. But keep in mind, any info I give you to give to > > > > > > > them most likely won't be followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > They won't follow the information they are not given, I am > > > > > > sure of that much. So, what info can you give? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do let me know what part of Calif we're talking about so I > > > > > > > can let regional know what suspect rescues maybe on the > > > > > > > roster. > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > They keep their animals, as I have seen with their cats, > > > > > > and find homes for them themselves, and I do not know > > > > > > where, how, or anything about that. I think that until > > > > > > these puppies are weaned and placed they will have seven > > > > > > dogs to take care of, like they once had nine cats plus > > > > > > two dogs. I don't know these people well, but I have > > > > > > observed them sparsely. It is a beautiful breed, one which > > > > > > nobody deserves to have a sense of monopoly over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leesa> > > > > > > > > > Again, oh my god. Get the pups and mom to the vet!!!!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dogs are not my dogs. I have no control over, nay, not > > > > > > > > even influence over, either they, or their owners. The > > > > > > > > best I could do is to give suggestions to them, which they > > > > > > > > may or may not take. I already see they are not taking > > > > > > > > advice I have given to them for monitoring the weight of > > > > > > > > the puppies as a barometer of sufficient feeding. This is > > > > > > > > the only expertise I have from cat rearing that I thought > > > > > > > > might apply to dogs. I know nothing about dogs. I know > > > > > > > > they are being looked in on, and that is all I know. And I > > > > > > > > am not the one looking in on them because the mom does not > > > > > > > > know me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christ, that's where everything starts! Bull Terriers are > > > > > > > > > very specialed and these people are very stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have read that there are indeed issues about Bullies > > > > > > > > such as the attachments to owners. I know that in the > > > > > > > > Bully community there is this thinking of who has to be > > > > > > > > connected to who. So wherever these dogs came from, either > > > > > > > > is renegade to or part of that, and there is no indication > > > > > > > > of knowledge. There is no crate. I don't know what to say, > > > > > > > > but these puppies need something if the vet is not being > > > > > > > > consulted, the source is not being consulted, no books are > > > > > > > > being read, no pet shop is being visited, and all that. > > > > > > > > All I can do is be a nag, but I have to have information > > > > > > > > of what to be a nag about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >You don't > > > > > > > > > understand--I CANNOT give you effective > > > > > > > > > pat-one-size-fits-all answers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, what if the difference of helping these puppies and > > > > > > > > the mom depend on what small answers you can give? I > > > > > > > > suppose I could go and research on the internet, but why > > > > > > > > do I have to research on the internet when I have a Bull > > > > > > > > Terrier Expert with several litters behind them of > > > > > > > > experience, right here? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every discipline of study begins with the basics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These people seem too > > > > > > > > > stupid to entertain what the real pros might offer (their > > > > > > > > > breeders or the BTCA) so why the hell listen to piecemeal > > > > > > > > > shit frm me? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are you calling them stupid? And why do you want their > > > > > > > > innocent puppies to suffer for their lack of motivation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is truly sad, and you'd call such advice 'control'? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, the lack of advice is what I am calling control. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus, whatever--yopu're worse than the moronoc millers we > > > > > > > > > deal with--whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not breeding any animals. I have two male cats, never > > > > > > > > had a male and female breed under my watch, and do not > > > > > > > > have any plans to breed animals, either. But if I did, I > > > > > > > > know the difference between animal care and animal abuse > > > > > > > > and do not believe that breeding animals defines a cruelty > > > > > > > > to those animals. The fact that there is a shortage of > > > > > > > > homes for animals is because en masse a campaign of animal > > > > > > > > rejection is perpetrated by organized landlords. So, I > > > > > > > > have nothing to do with any puppy mills when I am asking > > > > > > > > simple questions that could help an innocent family of > > > > > > > > dogs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >See you in rescue--thank god we're > > > > > > > > > here. You just don't understand--Bull Terriers are not > > > > > > > > > fucking cats!!!! > > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well Duh I've been saying that all along. When I had my > > > > > > > > cat litter in 1995 I had coaching from a cat boarding > > > > > > > > facility in my area who by phone helped me get through the > > > > > > > > birthing. There weren't any cat associations who said I > > > > > > > > had to listen to my vet. The vet secretary told me to > > > > > > > > leave the mom alone, but the mom was rejecting. I > > > > > > > > interceded and saw her to the acceptance and rearing of > > > > > > > > that litter. Mother and kittens did fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh my god... > > > > > > > > > > > geesh, is that screaming puppy a victim of fading puppy > > > > > > > > > > > syndrome and what do we do to save it as most vets don't > > > > > > > > > > > know? Is the bitch attacking the pups and we don't know > > > > > > > > > > > why? Is a pup so uncoordinated that it can't attach to a > > > > > > > > > > > nipple and can't feed? > > > > > > > > > > > Just maybe someone else KNOWS what the fuck is happening. > > > > > > > > > > > There are no generalised answers and how-tos here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What kind of environment, what kind of bedding, what kind > > > > > > > > > > of ventilation, what kind of monitoring, what kind of > > > > > > > > > > checking, how often is the checking, these very simple > > > > > > > > > > questions. Very basic questions. How often to feed the > > > > > > > > > > mom? What to feed the mom? Can we supplement a puppies' > > > > > > > > > > intake? What can we use to supplement a puppies' intake? > > > > > > > > > > When can we supplement a puppies' intake? Does it have to > > > > > > > > > > be soft ground, hard ground, covered bedding, dark, light, > > > > > > > > > > dim, sun in, sun out, like that. The basics. With cats it > > > > > > > > > > is easy. I know with dogs it is harder. But I don't know > > > > > > > > > > how much harder. What are these answers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >These > > > > > > > > > > > people have to actually get involved. And no, we can't > > > > > > > > > > > just give out 'puppy rearing tips' and call it > > > > > > > > > > > responsible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would call this CONTROL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >And you know what? A hell of alot of breeders > > > > > > > > > > > and mentors DO walk the puppy rearing people (and > > > > > > > > > > > sometimes their vets as well) through landmines--you just > > > > > > > > > > > have no idea whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best thing to do is to distribute education. Not > > > > > > > > > > hoarde knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am curious--why would you refuse to put people like this > > > > > > > > > > > > > in contact with me? Do you think I mean the breed harm? Do > > > > > > > > > > > > > you think my take on what they should do is wrong? You're > > > > > > > > > > > > > looking at the standard party line of one of the BEST > > > > > > > > > > > > > national clubs in the sport of purebred dogs. We have the > > > > > > > > > > > > > pristine reputation we have BECAUSE of our approach, > > > > > > > > > > > > > elitist that it sometimes seems. The breed and the dogs > > > > > > > > > > > > > are the priority, always. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have the privilege of associating with the BEST Bull > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terrier people in the WORLD, some of whom are my mentors > > > > > > > > > > > > > and co-breeders. And you'd 'sure as damn hell' not put > > > > > > > > > > > > > them in contact with me??--well, thanks for adding to our > > > > > > > > > > > > > breeds' problems--I WILL remember that. You read about the > > > > > > > > > > > > > horrors of puppy mills and you know what horse you backed, > > > > > > > > > > > > > sister. Go to one of their auctions sometime. You're > > > > > > > > > > > > > shamefully clueless and you profoundly hurt a 'charming' > > > > > > > > > > > > > breed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leesa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you tell your momma bullies, "now dear, everything > > > > > > > > > > > > is alright, we have the best organization for caring for > > > > > > > > > > > > your breed. Now look at this phone number. Feed that baby > > > > > > > > > > > > of yours, look at the phone number, and everything is > > > > > > > > > > > > alright because we are so good, we don't help spread puppy > > > > > > > > > > > > mill behavior around. Oh, you have a problem? Well let's > > > > > > > > > > > > see where that hotspot administrator is.....let's see, > > > > > > > > > > > > right here, you see this website? Go and put your paw on > > > > > > > > > > > > that keyboard now, that's it.....now isn't everything > > > > > > > > > > > > better?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you or don't you have the ability to give advice that > > > > > > > > > > > > people exercising their rights to breed their own dogs can > > > > > > > > > > > > take, even if they just didn't go and sterilize their dogs > > > > > > > > > > > > in the first place? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do appreciate your letting me know about this. Hmmm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They have both the dam and stud dog--I guess my first > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advice would be to contact the breeders where they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > acquired their dogs from and let them know they had (I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > presume) their first litter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where the dogs originated from, and it is not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an atmosphere where they welcome inquiries, even if it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > were my business, which it is not, where they got the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dogs, and it is also none of my business to call their > > > > > > > > > > > > > > breeder instead of them calling their breeder. If they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have communication with their breeder, they are not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reflecting such insights by their communications with me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There are many reasons why > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > puppies in the early days die. A seasoned bully breeder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can be an irreplacable mentor, especially when dealing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with the complications a litter can bring. I had 3 litters > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from 1986 to my last in 1993 (the one Elvis was out of) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and we had every problem and malady, genetic and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > otherwise, in the book. Without my mentors I never would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have made it! So my first call would be to THEIR breeder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for immediate advice, both general as well as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bloodline-specific. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They seem uninterested in the bloodline or genetic issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My next IMMEDIATE stop would be to a competent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bully-knowledgable vet and get everyone evaluated, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > including the bitch. It's probably too late to remove > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dewclaws, but I'd definately get an evaluation and be sure > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that mom has expelled all afterbirth and whatnot including > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > her milk output and general after-whelp condition, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > focusing on pseuso-eclampsia, a calcium drop somewhat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unique to Bull Terriers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are not taking the dogs to any vets at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If for some reason they can't access their breeder I'd go > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to the Bull Terrier Club of America's website (BTCA--do a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search) and find the closest regional club. We have alot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in California and we can arrange a home visit if need > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > merits from a member of the closest club. They are an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > invaluable resource with a list of BTCA approved vets. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have them tell the regional club contact that I sent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them--I'm the Iowa rescue 'hotspotter' if they don't know > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me straightaway and am on the BTCA membership list for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2007. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They don't even have time, they say, to go to Petco. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My e-mail should be on the Club's website, if it's not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > been updated from the old aol, it's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gallytrotter@mchsi.com. Have them e-mail me with their > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > phone and I'm more than willing to call them and make a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > personal referral and be of any assistance possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, thank you Susan for setting things aside and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > letting us help these folks and their bullies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We'll do the best to help these folks and their babies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I sure as damn hell won't put them in contact with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What basic care do puppies of any breed need? I know only > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of kittens, and do not know anything about puppies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | |
| reply | | |
| Previous: | re: Bully dog question - Leesa 02:50 am UTC 07/24/07 |
| Next: | re: Bully dog question - Leesa 12:40 pm UTC 07/24/07 |
| Thread: |
|